Why did Iluvatar/Eru give Men mortality?

[yavanna II]

Somewhere in the Silmarillion there's something said like : "the One gave Men immortality, to be free of the circles of the world."

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I'm not sure about the quote, yavanna, but exactly that. By death, Men are free to depart the Universe, within which they cannot be happy for long; the Eldar are doomed to stay with it for eternity.

You should probably read the rest of the Sil to answer this question, though.

[burrahobbit]

Because it was awesome.

[Finwe]

(burra, that was inspired!)

I, personally, think that Eru favored the Men over the Elves (just a little bit). That was why he gave them freedom, whereas he bound the Elves to Arda forever. Also, Men were given a chance to have Dominion over Middle-earth for Age or two (or three or four, etc.), whereas we never hear about the "Dominion of the Elves" because they were put on Arda to "prepare" the land for the coming of the Men, just as the Valar were supposed to prepare the land for the Elves (and Men).

All in all, I think Men got a much better deal, and the Elves got completely ripped off!

[Eladar]

But Men believe that death was a punishment for Men following Morgoth instead of Eru. Tolkien refered to this as Man's fall.

[Knight of Gondor]

Well, forgive me for taking this back a little to philosphey of today, but Tolkien was Christian, so he incorporated a lot of theological aspects to this sort of thing.

Eru gave Man free will, or as the Book of Lost Tales 1 put it, the power to make music of his own devices, though it be contrary to that of Eru's. I don't think He "favored" men over Elves. Some men coveted the gift of immortality, but it appears that the "gift" of men which was mortality was better, somehow.

I guess, in a roundabout way, I don't KNOW why he gave men mortality! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] But whatever the reason, it's the same reason God gave US mortality. (Just thank Him that in our Mortal span, we were permitted to see the LotR trilogy!)

[Iarhen]

I was reading the Ring of Morgoth, and it is referred to death as part of the marring of Arda from Morgoth´s bad doings.

But as always, even from Morgoth's corruption, Eru's work is greatened.

Maybe the gift that Eru gave men is the possiblity of abandoning Arda and go and dwell arond Eru... And that would be a thousand million times better than dwelling in Aman with the Valar... And Im not even taking into consideration that the Dagor Dagorath will destroy everything... And men will be safe from it (at least the ones with Eru).

So... if I faced the choice of immortality or living with God... I would die a thousand times to live with Him...

And why did he gave such a gift to us? Well, GOD KNOWS!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Somewhere in HoMe, perhaps in Morgoth's Ring (Andreth and Finrod's discussion?), I definitely remember reading that, since Man had a hard time staying true to the plan that had been laid out for him, Eru thought it important to bring Men home very quickly within his presence so they would not stray too far. So, unlike the Elves who had to find the inner resources to stay on track of their own accord for thousands and thousands of years, we are quickly ushered beyond the circles of the world...

sharon

[lindil]

As has been noted there are both internal [as contained in Morgoth's Ring] and external [TOlkien's Roman Catholic Christianity] reasons for the 'gift of Iluvatar'.

It is of note that until the 50's [when most of hte Morgoth's Ring writing hails from], there was no exploration [just the merest hints in the Silmarillion] as to how man 'fell', indeed a fall is not explicit, until we see the back story in the Finrod ah Andreth [ a must read imo].

In Christian theology the Angels cannot repent of the fall of Lucifer [and his accomanying 1/3rd], due to their spiritual constitution.

So when mankind [collectively and genetically] fell in/from the Garden, God mercifully foresaw the possibility/probability and designed or natures in such a way that repentance [i.e. the transformation of the nous ' the heart mind or eye of the soul].

So much of this becomes incorporated into the Legendarium, as can be seen first hand in HoM-E vol. 10 [my favorite] Morgoth's Ring.

[Aiwendil]

Lindil wrote:

In Christian theology the Angels cannot repent of the fall of Lucifer [and his accomanying 1/3rd], due to their spiritual constitution.

But in Arda, it appears that the angels (i.e. the Valar and Maiar) can repent. Melkor pretends to have repented and he is believed. Sauron apparently repents but is then driven back to evil by fear of the Valar. Osse does in fact repent and is forgiven (in a tantalizingly brief reference).

But I really don't know what the implications of this are with regard to the analogy with Christian theology.

[juhsstin]

because mortality makes forgiveness a whole lot easier. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Not necessarily. A mortal person could quite possibly become bitter and slightly (emphasis on slightly) jealous of their Immortal "cousins." Just look at Andreth for an example. Granted, much of her bitterness could have been due to Aegnor leaving her, but that mortal vs. immortal issue was one of the things that drove them apart. It is quite hard to forgive when you see a race of people so apparently gifted, and it seems like you're the downtrodden cousin who got the leavings.

[Lhunardawen]

I think Men fear death, or just do not want to die altogether, because they think life in ME is the best life they could have. I mean, they have absolutely no idea what would happen to them if they die, or where they'll go. They do not know how it would be to be finally reunited with Iluvatar.

Good thing we are briefed on how our eternal life with God would be, though I know it would be far better than the description. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Or maybe the Men love the Elves so much, they do not want to be parted from them! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[juhsstin]

when a mortal is jealous of elven immortality, i'm not so sure that's a case for forgiveness so much as it is a case for simply accepting the way things are. when i said forgiveness, i suppose i was thinking more about the wrongs which can be inflicted on people. mortality is supposed to be gift, not a wrong.
it's hard to forgive someone who has stolen your cattle, especially if you live forever and rememember it forever. although i suppose elves don't remember EVERYTHING... but they surely remember such huge debacles as the kinslaying of the noldor. and they remember it forever.

PS although having re-read your post, i see your point about the difficulty to forgive. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[ October 31, 2003: Message edited by: juhsstin ]

[Ainaserkewen]

Me thinks that no-one would want to die, especially if their life is pretty good/they have goals/tasks to finish. But (especially Tolkien fans in this thread) many people would rather die and go on to the next life/world, rather than wait around in this mediocre existance for eternity. Maybe that's just christians actually, I should ask my non-christan friends, I wonder what they'd say. The fact that men have the right to chose, and the right to die and leave, would make us more special then anything immortal. The right to chose, I think, is more pressious than any gem or long span of life.

In a way, the elves are restricted, trapped in a zoo cage, while men are the visitors of the zoo. We can come, enjoy, live, then leave after an appropriate time has passed. If there were no men, only immortal elves, it would make for a very dull story, don't you think?

[Olorin_TLA]

Which begs the question - if death is actually better than lingering, why did Eru notlet the Elves die?

Eru seems very mean. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]


As for only Elves=dull; well, Men weren't in the first half of the Silmarillion. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ November 03, 2003: Message edited by: Olorin_TLA ]

[juhsstin]

The fact that men have the right to chose, and the right to die and leave, would make us more special then anything immortal.

but they don't have the right to choose, they must die and they can't live forever. at least the elves get to go to valinor which sounds just like heaven to me. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Silver Dragon]

but they don't have the right to choose, they must die and they can't live forever

In the Akallabeth, it says that when the Numenoreans thought they had lived long enough in/had enough of the world, they could "chose" to die (example: Aragorn, last of the Numenoreans, decided to "sleep" in the ROTK when he got old, rather than wait till his life ran out). Personally, I agree with the "The fact that men have the right to chose, and the right to die and leave, would make us more special then anything immortal" statement. The elves must have gotten very bored after a while...but then again, they're not human (maybe they don't get bored...). Maybe the reason that the "powers that be" keep changing the world (and its inhabitants [both here and in ME]) is solely for the entertainment of the immortals that are stuck here...

[ November 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ]

[juhsstin]

but they still can't choose to live forever, why do you think they attacked valinor?

[Silver Dragon]

What person in their right mind would want to live forever?

[Olorin_TLA]

Why not? And don't give cliches answers either...I've heard too many like that in these sorts of discussions.

What would be so bad? Granted, everyone you know dying would be terrible, but what if everyonme lived forever?

[Mahal]

Would you want to work every day for eternity. Well I for one do not [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. I thought that because of Morgoth men didn't want to die anymore, the fall of men. But why he gave men this gift no one really knows...well they tell about eru's plan with men but what that is no one tells us.

[The Ninth Valar]

I thought Eru Iluvatar (or is that Illuvatar?) was giving them the ability to experience Arda and then the gift of passing beyond it, to be with him where the music was sung. I have not read the HoM-E so I cannot comment on anything in there. It seems more free will was given to the men, or the pressure of it was greater, since their lives burned quicker. Perhaps that is part of the gift, more of a freedom to choose their course of action and actually see some impact come from it, whereas the elves merely make a wrong choice, live with it for a millenia, then repent after much thought. In the second doom, even Feanor repents when he gives the Silmarils to the Valar. But is that a gift? The elves have the luxury of thinking over their decisions, but is it regret that forces repentence for the Noldor, say, or a sort of mental defeat? Men repenting their ill deeds would be less of a defeat, I think, because they don't have time for regret, because the consequences of their actions are much more immediate and I've lost my train of thought. Perhaps it will come back again.

The elves, it is said, are tied to the earth, they are in a way of the earth, and so long as it endures, so are they tied and must live, either in M-E or Valinor, or in the Halls of Mandos as a spirit or sorts. Remember, they can be reincarnated after a time, and are not truly immortal as they can be killed, simply not by the passing of time but poison or wounds.

Hm. I've rambled, but I think there is an idea present somewhere.

eru gave each race gifts that were not the same, but were bothe equally "good". Men dream of living forever, but what then? You could wander the Earth, and conquer things and become a king or something(this is sounding a lot like Highlander, isn't it?). The skills of Men are limited, and once you grow to a certain level, you hit a concrete ceiling. I say that if you've done what you want with your life, then you would want to leave it and go to a better place. The elves, on the other hand, are immortal, they do not age, and are graceful throughout their days. One of the main reasons they are allowed into the Undying Lands is because they had to wander the world forever. If you went to every area and every continent, ocean, island, the nwhat would ther be left? Men get pass into a new world (or, as it turns out, the halls of mandos), but the elves are left behind. Allowing the elves into the Undying Lands was partly consolation for having to endure the endless spans of time they must live through, while Men are allowed to leave. So eru blessed both races with their own special gifts, both of them equally "good".

[Castamir]

Iluvatar originaly gave mortality to Men as a gift, hence the phrase "the gift of men". The Numenoreans became jelous of the immortality of the Elves and Valar, and thus the "gift of Men" became the "Doom of Men"

[Orominuialwen]

As they say, the grass is greener on the other side. I think that men yearned for immortality because they felt that mortality wasn't as good, but maybe some of the elves (secretly) yearned for mortality- to leave the world and its troubles and cares behind, and dwell forever with Eru. I do think that both gifts were equal if different. This is (in my opinion) one of those plans that we can never fully understand. One just has to trust in God and know that His will is for the best, even if we don't understand it.