Tolkien's final First Age timeline

[Arvegil145]

Can a moderator merge this entire thread with http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19550 ('Tolkien's final First Age timeline')?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The flexibility of 7000-8000 might make it more workable. I will have to take yet another look... What we really need is an interactive timeline where you can select your assumptions. I bet I could do that, too.

Obviously I am working on this. Here is the link to view the current version, though only the first tab ("Options") is currently interactive. I don't know whether, as a viewer, you'll be able to use the drop-downs and have the list of milestones update; let me know?

This... might actually resolve the heirs of Finwe? Using the 'latest assumptions' answer to each question, I get the Aman years as about 6500. Per per XVII.3(1), the average age of marriage is 36, ie 1800 SY. Per AAm, the first child comes after about 200 SY, and then more maybe at 200 SY intervals. If we do a Tolkien and use all of that directly, we get a timeline that almost works:

0: Finwe arrives in Aman
200: Feanor born.
400: Findis born.
600: Fingolfin born.
800: Lalwen born.
1000: Finarfin born.
2200: Maedhros born.
2400: Maglor born.
2600: Celegorm, Fingon born.
2800: Caranthir, Turgon born.
3000: Curufin, Aredhel, Finrod born.
3200: Amrod & Amras, Argon, Angrod born.
3400: Aegnor born.
3600: Galadriel born.
4800: Idril born.
5000: Celebrimbor born.
5200: Orodreth born.
5500: Melkor unchained.
6500: Death of the Trees.

The youngest generation are all adults, but not of marriagable age. If Fingolfin marries or has kids later than normal, we could sync Turgon and Finrod's births back up. To give Aredhel and Galadriel the same birth year will always require a huge gap in Fingolfin's children, but we've already established he's being a bit weird about things.

Galadriel remains far older than Tolkien wanted her to be, though: she's 43 life-years at the Return, which is somewhere late-thirties "mortal equivalent". Tolkien wanted her to be 20 growth-years, = 60 SY. Still, that's the only major hole in this version.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Obviously I am working on this. Here is the link to view the current version, though only the first tab ("Options") is currently interactive. I don't know whether, as a viewer, you'll be able to use the drop-downs and have the list of milestones update; let me know?

There's now a second tab, "Interactive Timeline", which shows everything I've integrated so far. Currently it has no way to rearrange rows or do any sort of error checking, so there's at least one option that breaks hilariously. I will try to integrate more of the points we've got different approaches to.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Hmm, well. The Interactive Timeline is now filled out, with everything from my latest timeline except for a couple of speculative birth years in the pre-Finding era. But Google Sheets won't let me give you the ability to select options without also giving you (and anyone else who wanders through) the ability to delete the entire thing. I'm going to have to turn it into a website to make it work.

For now, though, the "Interactive Timeline" tab shows my best setup using the BBC figure of 7500 years between the separation of the Nandor and the fall of Morgoth. The children of House Finwe do, in fact, work! The only exception is Galadriel, who as ever is impossible to fit to her two latest facts: "older than the Silmarils" and "not an adult at the Exile". We just have to make do.

hS

[Huinesoron]

We have a timeline!

Running on Javascript on a section of my website that I really need to fix up, the Interactive Timeline uses 20 questions to fill out the entire timeline from the Awakening to the Fall of Angband. Pick your preferred answers, click the big friendly button, and (hopefully!) watch your own personalised Tale of Years scroll into existence.

The default settings are the latest (chronologically) even when I'd prefer a different answer; or when there is no chronology, I've picked the most conservative/logical option. It actually produces a timeline that hangs together! I'm sure other options would too, but I'm pleased this one does.

If there are other points where you think I need to be asking a question, let me know; the calculations are all strung together, so it's relatively easy to sneak a new one in. And obviously if you find an error, say something!

Excluded from this version are Celeborn (his only possible birth-year depends on a specific timeline which is not the default) and Finduilas (who per Shibboleth was born in Beleriand; I'll probably adopt the 272 Bel. date from Tolkien Gateway but want to look at the sources myself first), and I guess Gil-Galad. Oh, and Orodreth's marriage - his wife is a Sinda, so the normal age of marriage in Aman and time before first child don't apply. I don't know that I can work his marriage in (though AAm "20 VY" before 272 Bel. is 80 Bel., between the building of Minas Tirith and Nargothrond - a perfectly reasonable date for his wedding).

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

We have a timeline!

Running on Javascript on a section of my website that I really need to fix up, the Interactive Timeline uses 20 questions to fill out the entire timeline from the Awakening to the Fall of Angband. Pick your preferred answers, click the big friendly button, and (hopefully!) watch your own personalised Tale of Years scroll into existence.

The default settings are the latest (chronologically) even when I'd prefer a different answer; or when there is no chronology, I've picked the most conservative/logical option. It actually produces a timeline that hangs together! I'm sure other options would too, but I'm pleased this one does.

If there are other points where you think I need to be asking a question, let me know; the calculations are all strung together, so it's relatively easy to sneak a new one in. And obviously if you find an error, say something!

Excluded from this version are Celeborn (his only possible birth-year depends on a specific timeline which is not the default) and Finduilas (who per Shibboleth was born in Beleriand; I'll probably adopt the 272 Bel. date from Tolkien Gateway but want to look at the sources myself first), and I guess Gil-Galad. Oh, and Orodreth's marriage - his wife is a Sinda, so the normal age of marriage in Aman and time before first child don't apply. I don't know that I can work his marriage in (though AAm "20 VY" before 272 Bel. is 80 Bel., between the building of Minas Tirith and Nargothrond - a perfectly reasonable date for his wedding).

hS

Hi. Sorry for taking so long.

My, I didn't know you were making an actual, all-out interactive site for this - I thought I was just missing some function in GoogleDocs...

Anyway, it's brilliant and I've only just begun playing with it - I also shared it with the Vinye Lambengolmor discord server if you don't mind.

My only complaint from a cursory look is, would it really take the Dwarves of Ered Luin 3-4,000 years to enter Beleriand?

Also, you can just straight up say 'Defeat and execution of Morgoth' in the last entry (as per Myths Transformed). I'd also add: 'and the expulsion of his spirit from Ea', due to the Letter 297 (August 1967); The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 386:

Morgoth was overthrown and extruded from the World (the physical universe).

By the way, since I think Tolkien abandoned Dagor Dagorath in favor of Arda Healed, I think you should keep the reference to Turin coming back from the dead and slaying Ancalagon, instead of Earendil.


(Also, did we agree on not showing the exact generations, i.e. 'Ingwe, 24th generation', etc.?)

(Plus, I have reasons to believe that the 'Celebrimbor in Nargothrond' note mentioning the name 'Maglor' as well as Finrod's wife - and by extension, possibly Gil-galad - comes from a very, very late date.)


P.S. Would it be possible to make the timeline AAm/published Silmarillion-compatible? I.e. 9:582 VY all over, the Sun rises in Bel. 1, etc. I ask because your project, in addition to being a really cool idea has the potential to be incredibly useful to fans in general, especially when it comes to trying to integrate NoME and other late writings into the AAm conception.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

My, I didn't know you were making an actual, all-out interactive site for this - I thought I was just missing some function in GoogleDocs...

I wanted to use Google Sheets, but it wouldn't play nice, so I brushed off the website.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Anyway, it's brilliant and I've only just begun playing with it - I also shared it with the Vinye Lambengolmor discord server if you don't mind.

I definitely don't mind; it's made to be public!

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

My only complaint from a cursory look is, would it really take the Dwarves of Ered Luin 3-4,000 years to enter Beleriand?

The entry on the Dwarves definitely needs changing - it's got dates in it which don't change with the timeline! I'm going to modify that to have the correct dates - what it should say is that the western Dwarves built their mansions before the Quendi crossed the Blue Mountains, while Durin didn't found Khazad-Dum until after the Quendi crossed Caradhras.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Also, you can just straight up say 'Defeat and execution of Morgoth' in the last entry (as per Myths Transformed). I'd also add: 'and the expulsion of his spirit from Ea'

I'm not necessarily happy with 'execution', but I'll add the expulsion.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

By the way, since I think Tolkien abandoned Dagor Dagorath in favor of Arda Healed, I think you should keep the reference to Turin coming back from the dead and slaying Ancalagon, instead of Earendil.

This one I'm not doing. For one thing, the timeline doesn't even mention the War of Wrath; for another, I'm not convinced that reference is as clear-cut as all that. Isn't that the one that also suggests Beren comes back and fights Morgoth?

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

(Also, did we agree on not showing the exact generations, i.e. 'Ingwe, 24th generation', etc.?)

I've removed those to allow for using your preferred 7/8 generation timeline; it would probably need another question, which would affect at least some of the birth-dates.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

(Plus, I have reasons to believe that the 'Celebrimbor in Nargothrond' note mentioning the name 'Maglor' as well as Finrod's wife - and by extension, possibly Gil-galad - comes from a very, very late date.)

The one on PoME 317-8? My copy says "Maelor", and reads "It seems probable that Celebrimbor was son of Curufin", which seems to place it before any other source connecting the two, which... I would have guessed included the Shibboleth, but maybe not?

CT says that the note on PoME 350 (making Orodreth's wife a Sinda) is later than the Celebrimbor one, and dates that note firmly to August 1965; interestingly that's the same precisely-dated month as NoME 1.XVIII.

For the timeline, it looks like that 1965 note establishes that Finrod is married; given that they have no kids, it doesn't matter for this whether she went with him or not. Similarly, nothing in those notes changes what we've already got for Celebrimbor, or for the name of Maelor.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

P.S. Would it be possible to make the timeline AAm/published Silmarillion-compatible? I.e. 9:582 VY all over, the Sun rises in Bel. 1, etc. I ask because your project, in addition to being a really cool idea has the potential to be incredibly useful to fans in general, especially when it comes to trying to integrate NoME and other late writings into the AAm conception.

You can do this to some extent by selecting the AAm option wherever available; what you get is a timeline where everything falls in the right order (none of the Finweans are born after the Exile, for example), but some AAm dates are changed. The most notable one is that AAm has Melkor chained before the March starts, while the later sources say after the March ends.

The closer you look at the details, the less-well it matches, though. Names are changed, some events are tweaked, people are added (Findis and Lalwen don't exist in the published Silm!). I'm wary of adding loads of options to "the timeline of Tolkien's latest ideas" to make it match what he was thinking in 1958 + what Christopher was thinking in the '70s. (Would I need to add Fingon's marriage, and estimate the birth-year of his son Gil-Galad? )

There's certainly room for more options, though at some point I'll have to work out a better way to present them. I can also give you a toggle for switching the 850/1 dating to AAm VY starting in, what, 1000? But fitting NoME into AAm is not the point of the timeline - quite the reverse!

hS

[Amalcarin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The one on PoME 317-8? My copy says "Maelor", and reads "It seems probable that Celebrimbor was son of Curufin", which seems to place it before any other source connecting the two, which... I would have guessed included the Shibboleth, but maybe not?

CT says that the note on PoME 350 (making Orodreth's wife a Sinda) is later than the Celebrimbor one, and dates that note firmly to August 1965; interestingly that's the same precisely-dated month as NoME 1.XVIII.

I think the relative placing of these notes by Christopher is confusing, given that he also seems to indicate that the notes from PoMe 317–8 were written by Tolkien in his copy of the second edition of The Return of the King (1966).

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Amalcarin

I think the relative placing of these notes by Christopher is confusing, given that he also seems to indicate that the notes from PoMe 317–8 were written by Tolkien in his copy of the second edition of The Return of the King (1966).

Huh. Agreed: the quote is pretty unambiguous:

Thus in the Second Edition (1966) of The Lord of the Rings, at the end of the prefatory remarks to the Tale of Years of the Second Age, he added the sentence: "Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsmen; he was descended from Feanor."

On one of his copies of The Return of the King he underlined the name Feanor in this sentence, and wrote the following two notes on the opposite page...

Which pins the notes as 1966+, while the Gil-Galad note given by CT after Shibboleth is dated firmly to August 1965. This has no impact on Celebrimbor or Gil-Galad - they are each only in one note - but it's critical for Finrod, who as of 1966 now has his wife (unnamed, but her latest name is Amarie) with him in Nargothrond. That postdates Athrabeth and I believe all work on the Quenta Silmarillion as a narrative; unless Finrod having no wife in Middle-earth is mentioned in Shibboleth, the latest position is that she went with him to Nargothrond.

hS

[Amalcarin]

Concerning Gil-galad, I also believe that there always was an intended correlation between his first name and the name of his father that should probably be considered in the light of the Eldarin concept of the father-name: Findor < Fingon in the late note to GA; Finellach (of the House of Finarfin) < Finrod (presumably) in the unedited text of Aldarion and Erendis; Artanáro/Rodnor < Artaresto/Rodreth (later surnamed Orodreth) in genealogies discussed in PoMe; Ereinion < Arothir in the Shibboleth (least obvious, but the first elements are aran (pl. erain) and arod respectively, both derived from √AR) – which makes the name Finwain in a 1969 note published in NoMe (the chapter Hair) quite intriguing.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Amalcarin

Concerning Gil-galad, I also believe that there always was an intended correlation between his first name and the name of his father that should probably be considered in the light of the Eldarin concept of the father-name: Findor < Fingon in the late note to GA; Finellach (of the House of Finarfin) < Finrod (presumably) in the unedited text of Aldarion and Erendis; Artanáro/Rodnor < Artaresto/Rodreth (later surnamed Orodreth) in genealogies discussed in PoMe; Ereinion < Arothir in the Shibboleth (least obvious, but the first elements are aran (pl. erain) and arod respectively, both derived from √AR) – which makes the name Finwain in a 1969 note published in NoMe (the chapter Hair) quite intriguing.

That is intriguing, though not conclusive; and it might run foul of the fact that as a son of Orodreth, his sister is named Finduilas. I think for now I need to keep the timeline on the latest firm view, which is that he was Orodreth's.

The best (possibly only?) late source for the marriage/childbearing customs of the Noldor after the Exile is NoME 1.XVIII (1965). Under a scheme where Amroth is the child of Galadriel and Celeborn, Tolkien lays out the following: married SA 24; Amroth born SA 33; Celebrian born SA 45. The first 9-year gap is explicitly 3 Growth-Years; the second could be 4 GY, or 3 GY + 1 gestation period (at this time both were 3 years). The same source also describes the dates of Elrond's marriage and children (from the Tale of Years) as "possible but not likely", so I will take the Amroth-Celebrian scheme as a model.

The internet agrees that Finduilas' last known birth-year is 272 Bel,; it claims that date is from NoME 1.X, but I'm not positive that's right. Whatever the source, the Amroth-Celebrian scheme means that the dates fall out as follows:

- 263: Orodreth marries Meril.*
- 272: Finduilas born.
- 284: Gil-Galad born.

Or, if you pick the option to make 1 GY = 1 SY, 269, 272, 276.

*Yes, Meril. The mother of Gil-Galad is named in HoME XI, and I see no reason not to carry her over here.

One flaw in this is that in the "Meril" source, Gil-Galad is specifically a child when he's sent away after the Bragollach. That makes his birth at earliest 383 Bel., or 431 Bel. if we accept that Elves grew "as fast as men". Perhaps it would be better to go back to the "possible but not likely" scheme used for Arwen and her brothers: Celebrian married Elrond in TA 109, had the twins in 130, and Arwen in 241. That would give:

- 251: Orodreth marries Meril.
- 272: Finduilas born.
- 383: Gil-Galad born.

That... is an amazing coincidence. On the other hand, the 1965 note says that Gil-Galad "escaped", which implies he may have been present at the final battle of Nargothrond. I do not know how to unpick this one.

hS

[Amalcarin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

That is intriguing, though not conclusive; and it might run foul of the fact that as a son of Orodreth, his sister is named Finduilas.

But not necessarily, given the statement from L&C (MR/217) that the father-name of a daughter was often derived from the name of the mother – which in turn may be relevant for the question of whether Meril is a valid name for the wife of Orodreth (although it is also not certain if Finduilas was a father-name in the first place).

But anyway, I agree that Gil-galad being son of Orodreth was the latest firm view.