Fourth, Fifth, Sixth (and Seventh?) Ages

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I do see your point. All indications are that Tolkien was thinking of the Quendi awakening ca. 13,000 years before the death of the Trees, even if that specific source doesn't confirm the latter date. So Men would need to wake somewhere between VY 850 and 866. 1.VI.A has the Quendi wake in VY 1000, the Finding in 1090, and Men wake in 1100, which is before Melkor is defeated. In 1.XIII.1, the Quendi wake in VY 850 and are found in 865; applying the same ratio means Men would wake about 2/3 of the way through VY 866. 1.XIII.3 has the Great Debate about a VY before the war with Melkor, meaning late VY 866 is a plausible awakening date for Men - just enough time for Melkor to find them and set his plans in motion before he's taken.

End result: Men awaken ca. 10,000 years before the Trees are killed.

But, I'm not going to change the table, because that's a fairly long string of logic. The table records Tolkien's thoughts (or potential thoughts, in the Astronomy version) at various times; it doesn't attempt to make a "final timeline".

That comes next.

hS

I don't know - the First Age lasting c. 14,000 years is still way too long for my taste. While it's true that Tolkien stated that the Ages got progressively shorter as time went on, a jump from the 'First Age = 14,000 years' to the 'Second Age = 3,441 years' is a bit extreme.

Frankly, I much prefer your c. 6,000 years figure in your attempt to devise a 'final' timeline of the First Age. But, after all, that's just my personal preference.




P.S. This may or may not be a good place to share this little tidbit about the Awakening of the Dwarves:

Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone. And Aulë returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea. - The War of the Jewels, 'The Later Quenta Silmarillion', 'Concerning the Dwarves', pp. 211-2

Which would put the Awakening of the Dwarves in c. VY 870/872 in your recreation of the 'final' timeline scheme (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e..._2clV5l-ki/pub).

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I don't know - the First Age lasting c. 14,000 years is still way too long for my taste. While it's true that Tolkien stated that the Ages got progressively shorter as time went on, a jump from the 'First Age = 14,000 years' to the 'Second Age = 3,441 years' is a bit extreme.

Frankly, I much prefer your c. 6,000 years figure in your attempt to devise a 'final' timeline of the First Age. But, after all, that's just my personal preference.

... okay, I need to check this. Working backwards:

NoME 1.XIII.1 - Quendi awake VY 850, VY = 144 years. Finding VY 864 (2016).
XVII.3 - last scheme, Finding FA 2016, March ca. 2232.
XIII.2A - explicitly marks the Awakening as "First Age Begins".
XVII.2 - Trees destroyed VY 888, "if the Awakening were c. 800", this is where the 13,000 year figure comes from.

So yes, that was wrong. XD The First Age starts in VY 850 with the Awakening, and the Trees die in VY 888. My 'Final Timeline' is correct.

So Men awaken in 866, some 3100 years before the death of the Trees. The dwarves... well, it's difficult, because I always thought the dwarves came before Men, but your quote would have them waking about 3 VY after Men. I don't think those two figures can fit together.

hS

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

P.S. This may or may not be a good place to share this little tidbit about the Awakening of the Dwarves:

Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone. And Aulë returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea. - The War of the Jewels, 'The Later Quenta Silmarillion', 'Concerning the Dwarves', pp. 211-2

Which would put the Awakening of the Dwarves in c. VY 870/872 in your recreation of the 'final' timeline scheme (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e..._2clV5l-ki/pub).

And yet:
"The Dwarves were in a special position. They claimed to have known Beleriand before even the Eldar first came there; and there do appear to have been small groups dwelling furtively in the highlands west of Sirion from a very early date: they attacked and waylaid the Elves by stealth..."

Quendi and Eldar, Note 7

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

And yet:
"The Dwarves were in a special position. They claimed to have known Beleriand before even the Eldar first came there; and there do appear to have been small groups dwelling furtively in the highlands west of Sirion from a very early date: they attacked and waylaid the Elves by stealth..."

Quendi and Eldar, Note 7

Oh, I know - I was just throwing ideas around.

With that said, though: which version is the latest? I'd assume the one you quoted from the Quendi and Eldar (c. 1960 or so, I think).

[Arvegil145]

How about I calculate the average temporal distance between 'parent - child' in regards to (ordinary) Men all over the legendarium? Maybe I can come up with an 'average Mannish Tolkien generation'?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm not sure that when it comes to 1960's writings we can dumbly apply a "latest prevails" rule as if it were legislation. What we have instead is Tolkien thinking with the pen, jotting down ideas whichj he might or might not stick with- and as the years wore on increasingly fuzzed by failing memory.

[James the Just]

The year 10,961 BC seems to come up a lot in many an ancient chronology. Here's one.

The author shows that Atlantis did not vanish “in one terrible day and night” but survived in a variety of different forms well into the historical era. He reveals how the first Atlantean civilization lasted from 432,000 to 33,335 BC, the second one from 21,142 to 10,961 BC, and the third Atlantis civilization--the one celebrated by Plato--collapsed in 9600 BC, after the Younger Dryas cataclysm.

https://shop.ancient-origins.net/pro...m5waQBpQfWRaFn

This seems related to René Guénon's date for the Fall of Atlantis. It was somehow worked out to occur 7200 years (144 × 50) before 3,761 BC.

https://maypoleofwisdom.com/timeline...aston-georgel/

Or even to scientific ideas.

The Younger Dryas (YD, Greenland Stadial GS-1) was a period in Earth's geologic history that occurred circa 12,900 to 11,700 years Before Present (BP).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youn...act_hypothesis