3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles

[Elvellon]

A couple of things I noticed:

In DE-EX-07b, DE-EX-07.3, DE-EX-07.6, DE-EX-09, and DE-EX-10, there are instances of "Aule" instead of "Aulë".

DE-EX-04: "Yet the making of thing..." should be "Yet the making of things..."

DE-EX-05: An instance of "Iluvatar" instead of "Ilúvatar".

If these sorts of minor corrections are inappropriate for this stage of the project, please don't hesitate to say so.

[Findegil]

Thank you for pointing out these typos. I correted them in my woking copy, which is the basis for all new posts done by me in the privat forum. So when ever the chapter will be updated there they will be corrected.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

I have problems with the deletion of the mention of Durin in this line:

The reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their kings {- e.g. especially Durin - }is not when examined probably one of rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King {Durin (say) }to which at intervals his spirit would return

While it's true that in the LOTR, Durin VII (the Last) is implied to be a descendant of Thorin III Stonehelm, I'm not sure that the situation here is as clear cut as it may seem.


Remember, the Dwarvish genealogy in the 'Appendix A' was provided by Gimli, and as such it might not reflect the actual state of the matter.

Gimli might simply be wrong in his interpretation of the prophecy of Durin the Last, or, alternatively he simply was not allowed to share such 'sacred' information, even to his friends.

The passage in question reads like this:

The matter of the Dwarves, whose traditions (so far as they became known to Elves or men) contained beliefs that appeared to allow for re-birth, may have contributed to the false notions above dealt with. But this is another matter which already has been noted in the 'Silmarillion'. Here it may be said, however, that the reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their Kings – e.g. especially Durin – is not when examined probably one of re-birth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King Durin (say) to which at intervals his spirit would return. But the relations of the Dwarves to the Valar, and especially to the Vala Aulë, are (as it seems) quite different from those of Elves and Men.

And given that the LOTR and its appendices went through major historical revisions, I have no doubt that some of the 'Mannish garblings' found their way into them.


P.S. It makes zero sense that the forum kept the above passage while removing Durin, given that he serves as the prime example of the latest idea about the Dwarves. I mean, why would the other fathers of the Dwarves have their bodies preserved, with their spirits coming back to their bodies at intervals - but not Durin: the father of the fathers of Dwarves and the most revered of them all?!

[Findegil]

Arvegil145, ArcusCalion already remaked on that back very early in the thread and since than the '- e-g- especially Durin -' is back in our text. We only left out the next ' ... of former King {Durin (say) }to which ...'.

I hope that is okay for you.
Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Arvegil145, ArcusCalion already remaked on that back very early in the thread and since than the '- e-g- especially Durin -' is back in our text. We only left out the next ' ... of former King {Durin (say) }to which ...'.

I hope that is okay for you.
Respectfully
Findegil

Yeah...I really need to learn to read before I post...

[Arvegil145]

I think this footnote by Tolkien from NoME could be incorporated here, or otherwise in the Valaquenta:

The most notable were those Maiar who took the form of the mighty speaking eagles that we hear of in the legends of the war of the Ñoldor against Melkor, and who remained in the West of Middle-earth until the fall of Sauron and the Dominion of Men, after which they are not heard of again. Their intervention in the story of Maelor, in the duel of Fingolfin and Melkor, in the rescue of Beren and Lúthien is well known. (Beyond their knowledge were the deeds of the Eagles in the war against Sauron: in the rescue of the Ring Finder and his companions, in the Battle of Five Armies, and in the rescue of the Ringbearer from the fires of Mount Doom.)

- The Nature of Middle-earth, 'Manwë's Ban', footnote, p. 308 (from c. 1970 + )


Though I have no idea what the 'story of Maelor' (assuming it means 'Maglor') means. Perhaps Tolkien just conflated him with Maedros.

[Findegil]

This does rather cast much of this chapter in doubt, instead of asking for an addition to it.
What are ‘the Eagles of the Lords of the West’ that Manwë and Yavanna create here together, if ‘the mighty speaking eagles’ of all these story are Maiar? It seems that Tolkien had come down full circle to the passage from LT: ‘Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the sea and could pierce the hidden caverns under the world, and their wings could bear them through the three regions of the firmament beyond the lights of heaven to the edge of Darkness. Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Aman: yet some things were hidden even from the eyes of Manwë and the servants of Manwë, for where Melkor sat in his dark thought impenetrable shadows lay.’
Since Manwë’s Ban is most probably later than Anaxartaron Onyalie / Of the Ents and the Eagles, I think we have to follow this and eliminate the creation of ‘the Eagles of the Lords of the West’ from this chapter. The Note from NoME should than be included in the Of the Maiar sub-chapter of the Valquenta.

Respectfully
Findegil