Of the House of Ingwë and Indis' parentage

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Great point about "NoME Indis". Looking at the two Shibboleth texts, it certainly appears that the Aragorn note was written after the "daughter of his sister" comment in the text; it's a footnote to the end of the "Names" section.

The "sister" version is from HoME X:261-2, the "Finwe and Miriel" chapter. Looking at the sequence of composition, the "FM4" text which makes Indis sister of Ingwe was written after "FM2", which was derived from LaCE, which is itself ca. 1958. "FM3" was written on a new typewriter Tolkien acquired in January 1959 (cf. HoME X:300). And the NoME texts are among the latest in the "Time and Aging" composition sequence, which per NoME itself means they post-date the typescript of LaCE.

My best guess of the chronology is therefore:

• FM4, 1959: Indis, sister of Ingwe.
• NoME, 1959: Indis, daughter (1st or 2nd child) of Ingwe
• Shibboleth, 1968: Indis, niece of Ingwe.
• Shibboleth, 1968: Indis, descendent of Ingwe.

I'm afraid I do have to query your "House = patrilineal descent" comment. The House of Eorl, for example, includes two jumps to the maternal line, while the House of Beor seems to indicate the entire people of Beor. Then there's Gildor Inglorion, "of the golden House of Finrod", who isn't even related to Finarfin. That last in particular, along with things like the House of the Wing in Gondolin, makes me think we can't be confident "House of Ingwe" didn't just mean "people who lived in Ingwe's house".

hS

Two things:

1) I just have to state that the note to the Shibboleth doesn't actually say that Indis was the daughter of Ingwe: you correctly wrote that she was a descendant of Ingwe (but I still believe, based on the evidence from NoME, that Tolkien had a father/daughter relationship in mind here, IMO at least)

2) You're also right about the 'Houses' situation - however, I did point out (maybe not as emphatically as I should've) that it is only for the most part that Tolkien had such a notion of a 'House': implying, of course, that there are exceptions.

But perhaps I'm wrong about my assumptions.


Also, the reason I didn't even bother giving sources for the 'Indis, sister of Ingwe' version is because I'm well aware that this version of her descent was discarded fairly quickly (as far as I can tell, at any rate).

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

2) You're also right about the 'Houses' situation - however, I did point out (maybe not as emphatically as I should've) that it is only for the most part that Tolkien had such a notion of a 'House': implying, of course, that there are exceptions.

But perhaps I'm wrong about my assumptions.

The 'Generational Schemes' text you were quoting from does have:
"It was arranged – for Imin, Tata, and Enel said men [i.e., Elvish males] awoke first, and began the families – that when any woman married one of another Company, she was reckoned to have joined the Company of her husband. The exchange was about equal and does not affect calculations materially. For the same reason, descent of authority was reckoned from the immediate father; but women were in no way considered less or unequal, and Quendian genealogy traced both lines of descent with care."

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"House": I think Tolkien used both sides of what is traditionally a dual meaning in English usage- A) House meaning a ruling or powerful family, related by blood or at least marriage; and B) House meaning the above together with all their retainers and followers; their faction. Think Montagus and Capulets. (He also has Saruman pun(?) on a third, "physical dwelling" in his nasty jibe at the House of Eorl.)