Galadriel's Ban

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I can't see how 'Farewell to Lorien' can be read except as implying the existence of the Ban, the text of Namarie admitting I think to little other interpretation than the one JRRT assigned to it in RGEO in 1967. (And "I sang of trees...." even more so).

I agree that these texts seem to indicate a ban, even if Tolkien hadn't yet thought of a reason for Galadriel specifically to be banned.

Anyway, the reason I "woke up" this thread concerns a possible next stage in the imagined history. At one point Galadriel reveals: "We have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the sun was young . . . [addition]
And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat.”

Would this not suggest a "phase" (if possibly short lived, and ultimately revised of course) wherein Galadriel is not even part of the Rebellion? One person elsewhere on the world wide web has stated that Galadriel's songs could not, then, have referred to her ban -- I disagree with that so far, due to how I read the textual sequence given in The Treason of Isengard. . . and I'm wondering if you, or anyone, read the TOI description as I do. Which is (so far?):

manuscript -- no Melian statement
fair copy manuscript -- no Melian statement
typescript (not made by Tolkien) -- basically a copy of the fair copy -- no Melian info as typed

Melian added "later" on both typescript and manuscript

And Christopher Tolkien describes: "The initial workings for Galadriel's songs were nonetheless found with the earliest manuscripts of this chapter, both her song upon the swan-boat (of which there is also a finished text) and Namarie. The completed form of the first reads: . . ."

Maybe that's a bit vague, but if I read things rightly, I think it might leave room for two ideas here. If not, it seems
a bit odd that Tolkien should be thinking Galadriel has been banned within the same conception that she passed over the sea with Melian.


Of course, ultimately the Melian statement is dropped, with revision to the "mountain sentence", but I just wondered if you or anyone cared to comment further here.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

Anyway, the reason I "woke up" this thread concerns a possible next stage in the imagined history. At one point Galadriel reveals: "We have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the sun was young . . . [addition]
And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat.”

Huh. It's really hard to figure out what Tolkien might have been thinking here. The footnote you quote points to HoME V and the Later Annals of Valinor as the most recent (at the time) version of Melian's story; that has her leaving Aman before the Elves even awake, and apparently not returning until Thingol's death. Could Tolkien have actually considered either having Melian leave Aman after the arrival of the Noldor, or letting her travel between the two regions freely? Either seems like it would massively distort Thingol's story.

Or - is this early enough in the writing of LotR that he could just have been stealing a name, like he did with Glorfindel? If the sentence had stayed, would he have written anguished notes decades later asking whether there could possibly be two Melians?

Relatedly, there's a post-1955 note somewhere in NoME stating "Galadriel is made sister of Finrod" (emphasis in original), which in context seems to be Felagund. Given that the Finrod > Finarfin, Inglor > Finrod change only came about after the First Edition of LotR, does "is made" imply that the two statements in the Appendices that Galadriel is Felagund's sister didn't exist until the Second Edition (ie, "I am now making")? That would at least allow her to cross the Sea significantly earlier than the Rebellion, which the later youthful Galadriel would have trouble with. (Does anyone have a First Edition they can check?)

hS

[Galin]

My first edition (fifth impression) has Galadriel " . . . sister of Felagund of the House of Finrod." With Finrod (later Finarfin) being her father here.

If that helps!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Melian added "later" on both typescript and manuscript

The problem of course is that "later" could mean any time between the making of the amanuensis typescript, and 1973.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The problem of course is that "later" could mean any time between the making of the amanuensis typescript, and 1973.

Unless these texts went to Marquette with the initial, which would give a somewhat earlier terminus ante quem, but your point is valid either way.

I think it's always dangerous to assume that Tolkien definitely meant a change to the story when he might have just been misremembering details... but there's a LOT of change to the First Age narratives between the 1930s and the Later Quenta texts, and whenever Tolkien happened to think in the moment he jotted down that idea that Melian might have come out from the west, it does seem at least a little bit like the germ of the idea that would come later: that Galadriel would sail from the west separately from the banned Noldor (with Teleporno and a couple other Teleri), and it certainly seems like the origin of the idea that takes hold in the Tale of the Years and later, that Galadriel had some connection with Melian and Menegroth.

[Galin]

For possible clarity, the "addition" here is not simply that Galadriel passed over with Melian, but as I quoted above: "We have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the sun was young [addition] And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat."

Which, to my mind, all together is a precursor of the final form published in Fellowship: "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted, for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."

So as I currently see things, the Melian idea, whenever it was added, still drops out in the revision which takes us to the form published in 1955 -- in other words, it appears to have been added before the final version is reached, and is rejected in any case.

Anyway WCH, I assume by your remark that you agree that the ban (that you find in Nerwen's songs) and the Melian concept could belong to enough of a separate time in the draft phase, and thus could represent separate ideas . . . otherwise, if the songs "go with" the Melian idea, arguably it becomes harder to explain why Galadriel should be banned if she isn't even part of the Rebellion.


Or is my reading of the TOI description off in some way? I've simplified it a bit, but that's the sequence as I see it . . . so far.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Galin

For possible clarity, the "addition" here is not simply that Galadriel passed over with Melian, but as I quoted above: "We have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the sun was young [addition] And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat."

Which, to my mind, all together is a precursor of the final form published in Fellowship: "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted, for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."

So as I currently see things, the Melian idea, whenever it was added, still drops out in the revision which takes us to the form published in 1955 -- in other words, it appears to have been added before the final version is reached, and is rejected in any case.

Anyway WCH, I assume by your remark that you agree that the ban (that you find in Nerwen's songs) and the Melian concept could belong to enough of a separate time in the draft phase, and thus could represent separate ideas . . . otherwise, if the songs "go with" the Melian idea, arguably it becomes harder to explain why Galadriel should be banned if she isn't even part of the Rebellion.


Or is my reading of the TOI description off in some way? I've simplified it a bit, but that's the sequence as I see it . . . so far.

I'm having trouble coming up with a timeline, mentally, although I suppose it could be straightened out by someone a bit more familiar with the textual history (Bill Fliss has a big chart covering all of Marquette's holdings). The problem I have is that the "Melian passage" appears to post-date the "over the mountains" version, as if it was a passing idea for a change which was then rejected. Or, another possibility, it is an idea Tolkien had post-publication.

Part of the problem here is dating the typescript referenced here. Tolkien did not have much of the LR typed by someone else, nor usually close to the time of writing (except for Book IV, so that CT could be sent a copy). Most chapters remained in manuscript fair copy until he typed the whole thing himself between late 1948 and late 1949- and then a second time in 1952-55.