**Spoiler Warning** Rings of Power S1E1 - "A Shadow of the Past"

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I've had a problem with "ackshun gurl" Galadriel ever since I saw the first hint that she would be swinging a sword. Galadriel never picked up a sword in any Tolkien story. Not even once.

Galadriel didn't have to because her massive power and wisdom were always implied, and briefly revealed when Frodo offered her the Ring.

....

There's no mention of her fighting at all. And, even if she did, what did she fight with? Magic, like the Istari? Song, like Luthien? It never says.

Her swordsmanship is only an assumption, mutated into an awful trope, and executed in the worst kind of wire-fu seen in The Hobbit films, and exists only because some people feel that women need to ape men in order to be equal. Galadriel had wisdom and latent power, like great waters behind a dam, in the stories and the first three films. It diminishes women, imho, to cast them in these silly swordsmanship roles.

I take it then that your objections to the depiction of Galadriel are based on two points: that Tolkien never said she was a swordsman and that swordsmanship and fighting diminish femininity.

Both of these points can be rather easily dismissed. First of all, Galadriel was not an original character in the Silm. She appeared first in LotR and then Tolkien himself had to back write her into the mythology. This situation caused many confusions, as Christopher Tolkien himself noted in "Unfinished Tales": "There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies 'embedded in the traditions': CT calls this a "continual refashioning". (UT294). The chapter "The History of Galadriel and Celborn" recounts those many inconsistencies and refashionings. This is just one example of how Tolkien's efforts at worldbuilding worked against his efforts at storytelling. So it is hardly a grievous error or wrong for subsequent writers to try to flesh out earlier characteristics of Galadriel. After all, CT himself recounts that only after her desire for "the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth" were fulfilled did she turn away from those desires towards wisdom (P.298UT). CT also uses "fight" several times to describe her early actions in a context which could easily include swordsmanship or military tactics at least. It is not beyond possibility that the "athleticism" ascribed to Galadriel could have included martial arts.

She is also referred to as of "Amazon disposition" (Letter 348). The Amazons were well known figures in Greek mythology of women (cf. Penthesilea) who were renown for physical fighting. And there are many more female figures in Northern mythology and literature who were fighters, particularly the "giantesses" (how many times are we told how great Galadriel's stature was?) Hildiganner, Brana, Yma, Githr. Then in Britain's own history there is the famous Boudicca. Then there are several woman in the Bible known for killing enemies, including decapitation. Is their womanhood diminished?

Is Eowyn's womanhood diminished by her taking up concealment? Even if Tolkien does retract her desire for fighting, turning her into a domestic healer of sorts, that does not change the fact that with a sword she slew the Witch King. She is certainly attractive enough to earn Faramir's attention.

Neither of your arguments hold water, the latter in particular is mere opinion.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't think it's helpful to try to back-project onto Tolkien's thinking rather anachronistic 21st-century notions which to his mind - conservative even for his generation - weren't really present. Yes, Eowyn fought; but she was a clear and notable exception, her presence on the Pelennor a surprise to all. (Note her bitter response to being told to stay in Edoras "You have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will have no more need of it": an acknowledgement of and objection to "normal" Rohirric gender roles). It's also worth noting that the Witch-King had apparently never even considered the possibility of facing a woman in battle.

Tolkien's comments about Elven women fighting - as a last defense of their homes and children - is taken directly from the observed behavior of the women of the Cimbri and Teutones- who stayed with said homes and children (or the wagons and children if in "horde mode") and did not join the men in the war-band. He repeats the trope for the women of the Wainriders. This is certainly not uncommon worldwide; found among some Native American peoples as well.

Boudicca: nowhere in the sketchy historical information we have is it ever suggested she fought herself. She was Queen, and her tribe and its allies wreaked havoc among the Romans, but the pictures of mail-clad Warrior Woman driving her chariot over dying legionaries are artistic imagination.

Amazons- who only exist in myth. Same with Valkyries and shieldmaidens (this latter point has been contested recently; but even if the contestors are right the argument only arose long after JRRT's death).

There is furthermore a comment by Tolkien in one of the latter HME volumes which states that an Elf's capacity as a healer was negatively impacted by fighting; somehow one needed to stay out of the the "takes life" side of the karma balance to be successful on the "preserves life" side. (Note that Elrond was a herald, i.e. a noncombatant, during the WLA).

Which brings us back to Galadriel- could she fight? Yes. Did she fight? Once, at least- but in defense of kin and their homes (depending of course on one's version of canon). Did she command armies, or rove around as a wandering knight-errant or Witcher? No. In the Chronology Tolkien wrote that Celeborn led the army of Lorien against Dol Guldur; G's role was to use sorcery to tear the place down, much like Luthien (presumably after hubby had taken out the orcs). Luthien is another example to consider: possibly the most badass female Elf ever, but not once do we see her wield weapon. Galadriel was remarkable sedentary, a next-gen Melian. Her might was great, but not expressed in arms (compare Feanor, the other "greatest of the Noldor," who also was not especially noted as a fighter (and was a rotten general)). The basic problem with the recent fashion for Ackshun Gurls and Waryer Wimmen is that it really is a cop-out; instead of emphasizing feminine power, it just turns women into ersatz men.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I take it then that your objections to the depiction of Galadriel are based on two points: that Tolkien never said she was a swordsman and that swordsmanship and fighting diminish femininity.

There is a third alternative I abide by. By this time in the 2nd Age, Galadriel didn't need a sword to be utterly dangerous. She was born in Valinor, daughter of the Noldo (and eventual king) Prince Finarfin and Indis of the Vanyar, she survived the crossing of the Helcaraxë, and then spent the better part of the 1st Age under the tutelage of Melian the Maia in Menegroth.

She was a natural leader of the Elves, not some silly Mary-Sue shieldmaiden. To me, the Amazon depiction of an Amazon (ah, the irony!) detracts from the power and wisdom she would have possessed at the time, even before having a Ring of Power. She repulsed Feanor, she distrusted Annatar. True power is not some heavy metal tart waving about a scimitar, but having uncanny insight, an iron will, centuries of training in Doriath, and the innate ability to wield all three to exert her dominion.

Please recall that at the end of the 3rd Age, after the One Ring was destroyed, she stood before Dol-Guldur and "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed." No claymore necessary.

[Michael Murry]

Formendacil: "WHY the giant antlers? A Thranduil-call sideways?"

Thank you so much for that. When I told my Taiwanese wife about it, she had the same reaction we both did to Thranduil and his absurd choice of ride in The Hobbit: "You call yourself a Wood Elf? How do you expect to get through the forest with those monstrous wardrobe racks catching on every tree trunk and branch along the way?"

[Michael Murry]

William Cloud Hickin:

I don't think it's helpful to try to back-project onto Tolkien's thinking rather anachronistic 21st-century notions which to his mind - conservative even for his generation - weren't really present

Originally Posted by Huinesoron:

The whole swanship sequence is weird. . . . It's a boat! It's going to take you to the beach unless you do something ridiculous like jumping off it.

Yes of course she jumps off it. I don't know what her plan was.

Reply courtesy of Thinlómien:

This sequence was visually gorgeous but as you aptly describe, very silly. I'm still confused whether Galadriel intended to swim all the way back to Middle-Earth (and how long did she actually swim before being picked up by the shipwrecked humans on the raft).

Just what I needed. More poetic inspiration "based on" (or "adapted from") commentary on the Barrow Downs discussion forum. I've got verse compositions from 2011 to 2021 but I really hadn't gotten anything for 2022 -- until now. Many thanks for all the reviews, critiques, and opinions.

WOKE "WARRIORS" AWAKEN!

With knife in hand [they] dove into the sea
To sink or swim without a clue or plan.
But never worry. Just no "her" or "she".
Another shipwrecked castaway -- a man --
Turns up according to the script decree
To save Galadriel. Does this stuff scan?
The cargo-cultists watching on TV
Seem to accept the latest pronoun ban.
It's just how sequel/prequels ought to be:
Some "after," some "before", much also-ran.

Michael Murry, "The Misfortune Teller," Copyright © 2022

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I would have rather seen a young warrior king Gil-Galad hunting Sauron, and "middle-aged" Galadriel playing the politics in the background. (Or even 30-40-something-looking "career mom" Galadriel juggling raising her daughter and trying to build her own realm at the same time. )

I think they needed a protagonist with a personal grudge against Sauron, and neither Gil-galad nor anyone else would have filled that bill as well as Galadriel. Agreed though that they might have kept this aspect and still portrayed her differently, like you suggest.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I don't think it's helpful to try to back-project onto Tolkien's thinking rather anachronistic 21st-century notions which to his mind - conservative even for his generation - weren't really present.

Why not? Don't we do that with other works of world literature all the time? Christa Wolf wrote Kassandra against the grain of the Ilias, criticising male martial heroism from a female pacifist perspective which wasn't really present in Homer's mind. Why should Tolkien be exempt?

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Amazons- who only exist in myth. Same with Valkyries and shieldmaidens

Whereas Galadriel -?

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

There is furthermore a comment by Tolkien in one of the latter HME volumes which states that an Elf's capacity as a healer was negatively impacted by fighting; somehow one needed to stay out of the the "takes life" side of the karma balance to be successful on the "preserves life" side. (Note that Elrond was a herald, i.e. a noncombatant, during the WLA).

No.

Originally Posted by LotR Book Two, The Council of Elrond

'Alas! yes,' said Elrond. 'Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.'

Emphasis mine. Assisted Gil-galad in the last fight with Sauron himself - you can't get much more combatant than this. But evidently Elrond's healing capacity wasn't much diminished by this, and it is he who is portrayed as the great healer by the narrative of LotR, not Galadriel. So your point is?

[Lalwendë]

That ship looks so CGI.
Are they in a trance?
What happens to the Elven-servants taking their armour off? Why the two tiers of shipmates?
Is trip to Valinor actually an artistic depiction of ritual suicide?
Okay, the ship climbing the straight road is cool imagery, even if the dumbly-standing Elves are still ridiculous.

This whole bit freaked me out, I won't lie.

Alfie's opinion: "Eww, are they going to get naked? Erm, no."

I liked it in one regard, they were showing something that's a deeply profound moment in Tolkien's creation, passing to Valinor, so that's very special indeed. But it was nothing like the "swift green sunrise" I imagined. I found it creepy. If anyone was a fan of The Leftovers, there's a moment in the final series, where, without spoilers, a service is offered to those left behind which looks like absolute madness, it requires the most immense leap of faith, and any old heathen like me is thinking "Noooo, don't do it!"

This was like that and yes, it looked like ritual suicide even though it can't be that in Tolkien's creation for many reasons.

Why did they have servants undressing them?

I need to watch it again to see if it still gives me that creepy feeling, but it really did not in any way gel with the concept of a "swift green sunrise". That part was probably the part that bothered me the most.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I liked it in one regard, they were showing something that's a deeply profound moment in Tolkien's creation, passing to Valinor, so that's very special indeed. But it was nothing like the "swift green sunrise" I imagined.

I, on the other hand, could think only about the fact that I thought they went too literal with the "silver curtain" etc... I assume the swift green sunrise would have been there had Galadriel passed through... (maybe we'll see it in the epilogue to Season 10 or somesuch)

As for the undressing... I was not really paying attention to who was undressing whom, I was too shocked by the entire scene itself... but now that you mention it, doesn't it sort of (and didn't it sort of visually) resemble some, say, Egyptian practices, you know, servants are putting the pharaoh into the tomb...?

I mean obviously otherwise the undressing was there so that "you are going into Undying Lands, you are leaving your armour and war-equipment behind, this is the peaceful land"; but it is true that it looked sorta creepy.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Disclaimer: I, like others before me, am writing about both E1 and E2, since I'm not sure what was where. Beware spoilers therefore.

***

Hope I am not late for the party... but it took me a while to gather the stamina, and have the time, to write.

*ahem* *opens page 1 of The Great Book of Legate*

"It all began with the..."


For TL;DR, super short summary:

- my development of expectation levels for this show went like this:
1. "new LotR show is coming" - I never care about adaptations, why should I care now one way or another. Just another Peter Jackson-type high-budget thing.
2. "here are the trailers" - less PJ than I thought, but more PJ than I would have wished. But overall it does not really show much. May be decent, may be terrible, let's wait and see.
3. First episode - opening *much* more PJ than I thought, but that seems to be a "selling" strategy. There is no plot: aside from "clearly, Sauron is somewhere, and the characters just don't know it yet", nothing that would make me interested or care. Aside from - surprisingly - Harfoots (elaboration below).
4. Second episode - we are slightly picking up *some* plot as opposed to zero plot.
5. Current state: I am intrigued to watch further because I want to know what happens - who is the Meteor-Man (we all suspect but we want confirmation), what happens with him, and what happens to the Southlanders (see below).

And now, for the novel-length review:

The Good: Stone Age Hobbits: 9/10

After watching Elves running about pretty landscapes for a while and observing some random villagers, the "now THIS is interesting" moment came from totally unexpected direction: the proto-Hobbits. The scene with pseudo-Merry-and-Pippin stealing berries looked like just one more irrelevant same old, but in fact, it had about 200% more characterisation than all the Elves (see below). Then it only kept getting better.

Aside from one minor letdown (I shall return to), the Harfoots are a very believable depiction of "Stone Age Hobbits". I like the fact that it isn't just a copypaste of the Shire in another time and place, but you can SEE how this would transform into the Shire (and yes, into PJ's Shire especially, but I don't mind). The somewhat nomadic, reclusive, but skilful folk... I mean, even the opening scene with the weird antler-guys introduced the Harfoots by effectively putting Tolkien's description of Hobbits (Big Folk don't notice them to the point that they think they do magic etc.) into narrative. THAT is how film is done!

And then the Stone Age Proto-Hobbits can WRITE. Yes! This is the screenwriters READING and PAYING ATTENTION to the original. Because the Hobbits' affinity for books is somewhat counterintuitive (merry, simple farmers, or in this case gatherers, are not what you'd associate with literacy as one of their chief values), it would be easy to miss this one. But look! They have books AND their own proto-script! If Tolkien the linguist were to cheer at anything, I daresay it would be this. Well done!

On the other hand and sadly, what Tolkien the linguist would be likely as disappointed with as I was, is the name choices for the proto-Hobbits. To give them the same names as Third Age Hobbits is a boring choice. They should be something along the lines of Déagol, Sméagol etc. True, someone could say that those are Harfoots, not Stoors, but other arbitrary decisions of the same type have been made in the series.

I also understand that having a protagonist named Déagol or some similar "weird" name is not as "appealing" and fan-friendly as something more "normal", but I am sure you'd be able to come up with some cool-sounding, easy-to-pronounce nicknames. Besides, with your billion-budget, you could hire an expert on some proto-Anglo-Saxon-whatever who would help you with that.

Also - even on top of all this - I don't know why the authors named the main character Elanor (Nori). It's straightaway dumb to name a character whose name is similar to two existing Tolkien characters, i.e. Sam Gamgee's daughter, whose name was supposed to be specifically new and un-Hobbit-y, AND a Dwarf! That's as if they named one of the new Men characters Gwindor, nickname Dori.

The Bad: Elves: 2/10

Let me make one thing clear - I am okay with many aspects of the Elven storylines. The main letdown is that it seems like Galadriel's motivation to stay in Middle-Earth is not gonna include my favourite thing about her, i.e. the fact that she wilfully followed the Noldor into exile, then wilfully - oh the daring! - refused the mercy of Valar because she wanted to build herself a little empire and then matured into her Third Age self who refused the Ring of Power itself! That would have been an amazing character arc to explore, but sadly (also obviously because of lack of rights to Sil etc) this seems to be, at worst, reduced into "she refused because as a goody two-shoes she wanted to stop Sauron" or at best, reduced into "she refused because she wanted to avenge her brother" (that is a "bad" motivation to refuse divine mercy, but the original was better, also because it was dealing with the main concept of the Ring story - power).

Otherwise: Elrond looks good, Galadriel looks okay (she should be like half a meter taller... I have one really tall friend who, in response to the casting, complained about lack of representation for people like herself. It was a joke, but there is some truth to it). Gil-Galad has completely wrong colours (should be silver and blue), but whatever. Celebrimbor (while nothing against the actor, he's of course good) is too old. I would have preferred a young innovator to an "old mad scientist", even though it has its charm.

But the age inconsistency is the chief problem for me. I understand that the authors wanted to make the main protagonists young, so that you can show that they are younger than their Third Age selves. Makes sense. But then be consistent, and if 2000-y/o Galadriel is 30, then Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad should be too, if not younger. (Elrond can be excused for being half-elven, so maybe he "caught up" faster.) I personally dislike "all young casts", but here there would have been an excuse for it. On the other hand (Legate 180 coming), this way it at least does not look like "oh these people didn't manage to stop Sauron in time just because they were young and inexperienced".

What has been the worst about the Elven storyline was the dialogue in the supposed "High Elf" manner, which has been just abysmal (with one notable exception). I am sorry, but that is a fact. Elrond and Galadriel talking sound like someone who cannot write trying to imitate Shakespeare. It reminds me of the infamous scene from Star Wars Episode II where Anakin expresses his love to Padmé. Incidentally, just one day later I watched House of Dragon and there was also a "posh noble antiquated-speech" dialogue, and it sounded absolutely realistic, unlike this. So it can be done. Why didn't the makers with their extra millions hire some professional writer just to proofread, I don't know.

That is not to say that the dialogue has so far been any marvel, which is a pity for a show based on the works of one of the greatest writers. Obviously nobody could easily measure up to Tolkien, and PJ had the advantage that he had the original to work with (also you can tell the difference between Tolkien's original script and "Orcs!" "A diversion!" "Toss me!"). But knowing what kind of a task this was, and knowing that it would come under the more scrutiny, one would have expected the text to have come under much stricter scrutiny before it was released than it seemingly did.

Dialogue should also outline the characters, express their personality, their relationships. Very little has come out on that front. Sure, it is early on, there has not been enough time for subtle nuances, but then again, two hours already is the length of an average (non-PJ) film. "I want to finish what my brother started" or "I am in a star-crossed romance with a human/Elf" is preciously little.

The Dwarves: The Dwarves (6/10)

In the first two episodes, there was one instance of really cool dialogue: the "elevator dialogue" between Elrond and Durin. This is what writing should look like. It had characterisation, it felt realistic (unlike when eg Elrond and Galadriel talk to each other), and the theme was something that is not directly addressed in the source material, but that totally could be. Well done writers! If there was more like this...

Sadly I am as disappointed, if not offended, as probably many others by degrading the Dwarves into "yarr let's get drunk and smash rocks". It would have been okay to show a little of it. But not to devote an entire scene to it. Certainly not as the introductory scene of the Dwarves.

I must say that I was very pleasantly surprised with Disa. Given that we have not seen a Dwarven woman before, this came across as a rather successful attempt. She is regal, she comes across as a person, her relationship with her husband is fleshed-out...

The Hotman, aka The Meteor-Man... (?/10)

...aka I Have Many Names In Many Lands. Now my impressions from this storyline oscillated between "what in the name of?... okaaay, is this Sauron?... no... NO WAY... YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS?!??... okaaaay... but this is actually somewhat interesting..."
Since this is not a speculation thread, I will leave it at that. After two episodes, I am intrigued to see what becomes of it, because I seriously have no idea. At least so far (besides the fact that whichever way this goes, it is likely a breach of canon, but hey, it won't be the first nor the worst - in *any* adaptation) there is nothing I can really complain about in that story. Let's wait and see where it goes before I evaluate anything.

(But just saying, one thing that crossed my mind, it would be cool if it turned out to be a triple-trick... by which I mean, it looked a little like it could be Sauron, then Gandalf [or even Radagast], but it would be epic plot twist if it turned out to be the Balrog. I mean... think about it. Hypothetically, why not. A Maia could do a degree of morphing, and the Balrog is known for it. If we are this deep in non-canon elements, let it at least be interesting!)

The Weird: "Southlands" storyline (1/10 with potential, see below)

In terms of how interesting it is, I find it somewhere between the Elf storyline and the Harfoot storyline. It started in the same way of "why should I care about these people" (and in fact, I still don't care about them), then it slowly started getting some plot. The plot is on the level of any generic fantasy, but, meh, whatever.

I don't particularly care about the fact that those poor people are getting overrun by Orcs, either. What COULD make it interesting, eventually, would be if the "those people are evil" prediction came entirely true and they just teamed up with Sauron. (Even though of course the nicer twist would be if they didn't, since being evil is what seems to be expected of them. I expect the end result will be some sort of division, half of them will become evil, half of them won't.)

I am not particularly impressed with their names. Theo is a terrible name - I assume it is meant to be a nickname for some Théoden-type thing, but ugh... What are they supposed to be anyway? Théosomething and Bronwyn would point towards some pre-Eorlinga-mismatch, "generic Northmen", I guess; but if they are this far South (not sure where exactly anyway), wouldn't something else been better? I am imagining a similar ethnic to the White Mountain folk.

Now, potential spoilers for those who have not thought of it. What makes this storyline potentially cool - the only thing that makes it potentially cool - is where it seems to be going. One thing that seems clear as Night to me is that the little boy will become a Nazgul (WK himself?). That is what I think about the sword. The sword, incidentally, being a sort of "reverse Morgul-blade" was a cool trick. And I like the "blood-powered" system (no matter I have no idea how it's supposed to work and what it is doing there. It is cool, I like it).

And it is all very ominous. A pity I don't care about the kid at all otherwise. But hey, I want to see someone turn into Nazgul. And it inevitably leads to some horrible tragedy of his mother being good (obviously) and him being evil and whatever. Then she, with broken heart, kills him, but he rises back as undead. You know, that kind of drama. (Heck, you could even put there something cool like the "no living man can kill him" prophecy! Now how about that!!! Okay, I called it.)

Another element, which would be really really cool, would be if the beautiful land this all is taking place in was actually Mordor. It would be really really cool to see this pretty green landscape turn into fire and brimstone. It would at least explain all the digging by the Orcs.

And finally, based on that it somehow seems that, wink wink, Mr. Halbrand is the runaway father of the boy, and now he seems to have been picked up by the Númenoreans, may be that what if he comes back home with the Númenoreans. What if they now come as colonists and subjugate these poor Bronwyn&co. people, Mr. Halbrand being also dragged into it, either intentionally or not. That would be a good excuse for some family drama. I sadly supect I may be mistaken about this happening but it would be cool. I am imagining this kind of development:

Theo: "You Númenoreans are evil colonisers! Oh and I saw an Elf in the background, Númenoreans and Elves are evil!"
Halbrand: "No, no, I agree my new friends are a bit heavy-handed, but they are here to bring civilisation."
Theo: "Shut up dad, you left us when we needed you! We don't want you nor your Númenorean friends here, go away or we'll chase you out by force!"
Bronwyn: "Now now, my son, I agree that the Númenoreans shouldn't colonise us, but let's not make this come to violence..."
Theo: "That will get us nowhere, mum! Oh if only I had the power to drive those invaders out, I'd show them to leave our people alone!"
Annatar: "Well hello there, young Skywalker..."

Absolutely fine by me. Sadly, again, not convinced that this would happen and secondly, really a pity that I don't give a broken blade about these characters.

And that ends my massive treatise, fellow Wights. I am pretty sure I have forgotten several things that would deserve mentioning, but, this is already long enough...

Until next time.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The Good: Stone Age Hobbits: 9/10

And then the Stone Age Proto-Hobbits can WRITE. Yes! This is the screenwriters READING and PAYING ATTENTION to the original. Because the Hobbits' affinity for books is somewhat counterintuitive (merry, simple farmers, or in this case gatherers, are not what you'd associate with literacy as one of their chief values), it would be easy to miss this one. But look! They have books AND their own proto-script! If Tolkien the linguist were to cheer at anything, I daresay it would be this. Well done!

This is another place where the showrunners were not paying any attention (unless it was another one of those 'well we went back to the books and we felt that was what Tolkien wanted' despite what Tolkien said).

"Of their original home the Hobbits in Bilbo’s time preserved no knowledge. A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Their own records began only after the settlement of the Shire, and their most ancient legends hardly looked further back than their Wandering Days."
LotR, Prologue

Hobbits were illiterate until ca. TA 1300:
"It was soon after their learning of letters, about Third Age 1300, that Hobbits began to set down and collect the considerable store of tales and legends and oral annals and genealogies that they already possessed."
PoMe, Appendix on Languages

[Boromir88]

Going back to a minor point for a moment.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Emphasis mine. Assisted Gil-galad in the last fight with Sauron himself - you can't get much more combatant than this. But evidently Elrond's healing capacity wasn't much diminished by this, and it is he who is portrayed as the great healer by the narrative of LotR, not Galadriel. So your point is?

I'm not sure "stood by" implies Elrond participated (or assisted) in that last fight with Sauron. The text I I think pretty straight forward with how those events played out.

1. Sauron goes into combat with Gil-galad and Elendil.
2. Gil-galad and Elendil both perish, but Sauron is overthrown in the contest as well.
3. Isildur cuts the ring from Sauron's hand.
4. Elrond and Cirdan were the only others present and counseled Isildur to destroy the ring
5. Isildur claims the Ring as weregild for the death of his father and brother.

"I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host."~The Council of Elrond

I'm not sure if herald's had other meanings, besides being a messenger? All Elrond says is he "marched with his [Gil-galad's] host" and "stood by" him at the end as one of the few there who knew what happened.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

"Of their original home the Hobbits in Bilbo’s time preserved no knowledge. A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Their own records began only after the settlement of the Shire, and their most ancient legends hardly looked further back than their Wandering Days."
LotR, Prologue

Hobbits were illiterate until ca. TA 1300:
"It was soon after their learning of letters, about Third Age 1300, that Hobbits began to set down and collect the considerable store of tales and legends and oral annals and genealogies that they already possessed."
PoMe, Appendix on Languages

Ah well, my bad. Thanks for the correction. That is on me not remembering then. Guess I am getting old.

But I anyway have to say that I like it. It preserves some of the feel, if not the canon (which is already not preserved by the names, see above).

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It's a prime (ho ho) example of how something read, and interpreted according to your own experience of the world, is different to how another person reads and imagines it. To me, that transition to Valinor would be like sailing into the silvery curtain of a 'sea fret' (a type of fog that forms in particular over the sea and coast of NE England) and emerging to see green fields ahead. It sticks powerfully as an image, the quiet, the damp, the eerie sound. In RoP it was really grand and golden.

This doesn't mean it's *wrong*, it's just not in any way as I'd imagine it, and like they were taken by something rather than quietly disappearing.

Interesting contrast though to how the Barrow-wights were prepared as dead Men for their own final journey, with their weapons accompanying them.

I imagined the curtain first of all as kind of semi-metaphorical, or something that is borderline hard to describe, a mystical experience of sorts: something that is like a feeling of passing the curtain, but obviously not literally, but you don't really have any better words for it (and in retrospect, you also can't tell if it was "real", i.e. tangible, or not).

But I personally also imagine it rather silver than golden. Maybe the showmakers have some obsession with gold as opposed to silver. First Gil-Galad, who too was supposed to "shine" with the light of "stars" and "silver shield"; now this...

Nice spotting the thing about the Barrow-Wights though! I actually like that marked difference between the Men (notably "evil" Men) and the Elves (notably "good" Elves)...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm not sure if herald's had other meanings, besides being a messenger? All Elrond says is he "marched with his [Gil-galad's] host" and "stood by" him at the end as one of the few there who knew what happened.

I personally imagine herald as being the guy who stands next to Gil-Galad with a trumpet and announces "Lord of the Black Land! Hear us! Gil-Galad, the First (and Only) of His Name, King of the Noldor and the Free Realms, now challenges you to a duel! Come forth if you do not wish to be seen as rotten coward!"

[Tar Elenion]

Elrond was in the War of Wrath:
"Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. ‘I remember well the splendour of their banners,’ he said. ‘It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.’"
LotR, Council of Elrond
Led armies in the War of Elves and Sauron:
"When news of this reached Gil-galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion."
"But his force was weakened by the necessity of leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear."
"The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gilgalad, and utterly destroyed."
UT, History of G&C
(along with the participation in the Last Alliance)
This seems to establish Elrond as a warrior and war-leader in the First and Second Ages.

In Third Age draft materials Tolkien also indicated Elrond took part in the Angmar wars, but replaced him with Glorfindel.

In my opinion, Elrond as a healer is being established in the Third Age. Hence abstaining from war, as do elven-healers (though male healers will go to war at last need).

Elf-women abstain from war and this abstention gives them great virtue in healing (though elven-women will fight in desperate defence, much as Galadriel did at the First Kinslaying).

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm not sure "stood by" implies Elrond participated (or assisted) in that last fight with Sauron. The text I I think pretty straight forward with how those events played out.

1. Sauron goes into combat with Gil-galad and Elendil.
2. Gil-galad and Elendil both perish, but Sauron is overthrown in the contest as well.
3. Isildur cuts the ring from Sauron's hand.
4. Elrond and Cirdan were the only others present and counseled Isildur to destroy the ring
5. Isildur claims the Ring as weregild for the death of his father and brother.

I'm not sure if herald's had other meanings, besides being a messenger? All Elrond says is he "marched with his [Gil-galad's] host" and "stood by" him at the end as one of the few there who knew what happened.

OK, back to the text. This is once more Elrond speaking:

Originally Posted by LotR Book Two, The Council of Elrond

I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery; for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.

We're agreed, aren't we, that the mortal contest in the quote I gave earlier refers to this last combat? It never says that none but Elendil and Gil-galad engaged Sauron, only that both perished in this fight. And what else do you imagine Isildur, Círdan and Elrond were doing while their kings (one of them Isildur's father) were fighting the Enemy? How do you read Elrond saying that he and Círdan stood by Gil-galad if not as direct involvement and active support (as in Stand By Your Man)? Were they just standing there watching?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I take it then that your objections to the depiction of Galadriel are based on two points: that Tolkien never said she was a swordsman and that swordsmanship and fighting diminish femininity.

Yes.

Both of these points can be rather easily dismissed. First of all, Galadriel was not an original character in the Silm. She appeared first in LotR and then Tolkien himself had to back write her into the mythology. This situation caused many confusions, as Christopher Tolkien himself noted in "Unfinished Tales": "There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies 'embedded in the traditions': CT calls this a "continual refashioning". (UT294). The chapter "The History of Galadriel and Celborn" recounts those many inconsistencies and refashionings. This is just one example of how Tolkien's efforts at worldbuilding worked against his efforts at storytelling. So it is hardly a grievous error or wrong for subsequent writers to try to flesh out earlier characteristics of Galadriel. After all, CT himself recounts that only after her desire for "the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth" were fulfilled did she turn away from those desires towards wisdom (P.298UT). CT also uses "fight" several times to describe her early actions in a context which could easily include swordsmanship or military tactics at least. It is not beyond possibility that the "athleticism" ascribed to Galadriel could have included martial arts.

"Could" doesn't mean "did," like "can" doesn't mean "should," as in the logic you used here.

She is also referred to as of "Amazon disposition" (Letter 348). The Amazons were well known figures in Greek mythology of women (cf. Penthesilea) who were renown for physical fighting. And there are many more female figures in Northern mythology and literature who were fighters, particularly the "giantesses" (how many times are we told how great Galadriel's stature was?) Hildiganner, Brana, Yma, Githr. Then in Britain's own history there is the famous Boudicca. Then there are several woman in the Bible known for killing enemies, including decapitation. Is their womanhood diminished?

The fact that they can be named shows how few they are in history. Yet it's a silly trope pushed by modern media for the last 30+ years. One people seemingly can't even recognize as a trope, and will go to the mattresses to shoehorn into disbelief suspension.

Is Eowyn's womanhood diminished by her taking up concealment? Even if Tolkien does retract her desire for fighting, turning her into a domestic healer of sorts, that does not change the fact that with a sword she slew the Witch King. She is certainly attractive enough to earn Faramir's attention.

Neither of your arguments hold water, the latter in particular is mere opinion.

Ah, as opposed to your non-opinion.

Having one "shieldmaiden" among about 300 male, warrior/fighter characters seems to fit the demographics/statistics. Everyone should have stopped there, instead of pushing the notion of backflipping sword gymnast, Galadriel.

[Bêthberry]

Huinsoron, out of all the discussions here about Galadrien, I thought this comparison would best suit your thread on the first episode. My thanks to the Downer formerly known as Lush for bringing the second image to my attention. And sorry for the sizes but with limited time for internet today I could not find smaller ones.

Galadriel with the elven helmets from RoP.



And this painting by the Russian artist Vasily Vereshchagin, "The Apotheosis of War". The 19th C painting is famous for its alleged criticism of the Russian military; it and a second painting by Vereshchagin were not allowed in a Moscow exhibit.



I leave comments to any who might wish to interpret the conjunction.