**Spoiler Warning** Rings of Power S1E1 - "A Shadow of the Past"

[Michael Murry]

What about dragons (or the Great Worms)? Anything about them, tattooed or otherwise?

I ask because of the poetic/polemical possibilities suggested by The Dragon with the Girl Tattoo (Hardcover – September 1, 2011) by Adam Roberts (Author). A brief synopsis:

Lizbreath Salamander is young and beautiful. Her scales have an iridescent sheen, her wings arch proudly, her breath has a tang of sulfur. And on her back a tattoo of a mythical creature: a girl. But when Lizbreath is drawn into a dark conspiracy she will have to rely on more than her beauty and her vicious claws the size of sabres ...A dragon has disappeared, one of a secretive clan. As Lizbreath delves deeper into their history she realises that these dragons will do anything to defend their secrets. Welcome to the world of The Dragon With The Girl Tattoo. A world of gloomy Nordic dragons leading lives uncannily like our own (despite their size, despite the need for extensive fireproofing of home furnishings), a world of money hoarded, a world of darkness and corruption. A world where people are the fantasy.

This reminds me of Bilbo Baggins using flattery and riddles to talk his way out of becoming a dragon appetizer for Smaug in The Hobbit:

"This of course is the way to talk to dragons, if you don't want to reveal your proper name (which is wise), and don't want to infuriate them by a flat refusal (which is also very wise). No dragon can resist the fascination of riddling talk and of wasting time trying to understand it."

And then, in very much the same, but more comedic, vein we have Donkey (in Shrek) talking his way out of a similar predicament with a dragon about to devour him:

Donkey: “Oh, what large teeth you have. I mean, white, sparkling teeth. I know you probably hear this all the time from your food, but you must bleach, ‘cause that is one dazzling smile you got there. Do I detect a hint of minty freshness? And you know what else? You’re girl dragon! Oh, sure! I mean, of course you’re a girl dragon. You’re just reeking of feminine beauty. What’s the matter with you? You got something in your eye? [Dragon blows pink, heart-shaped smoke ring at Donkey] Man, I’d really love to stay, but, you know, I’m, uh … I’m an asthmatic, and I don’t know if it’d work out if you’re gonna blow smoke rings. [Dragon picks Donkey up by the tail and marches away with him]. Shrek!”

We have some real possibilities here, especially for a "female perspective" applied not just to yet another Mary Sue killer Elf chick with swords and armor but slinky, seductive winged lizards, as well. So, I for one, would find mention of these creature/caricatures most interesting. My thanks in advance for anyone taking note of dragons in this series of ... whatever ...

[Thinlómien]

(because I don't remember what exactly was in each episode and it's hard to separate my thoughts about episode 1 of those from episode 2... which was considerably better, by the way)

So, our Barrow-Downer family (Nogrod, A Little Green, Legate of Amon Lanc and myself) watched the two first episodes together yesterday. Verdict? Not impressed. Actually, personally I thougt it was worse than I expected. When the first reaction started to appear online on Friday, most of the negatives seemed to be from those decided on hating the series from the start. The rest of the audience seemed to have a positive or at least a mixed reaction.

But oh dear... what a mess it was. It cannot be called a Tolkien adaptation in any way, and the writing is pretty abysmal. They somehow managed to borrow the worst parts of Peter Jackson without the redeeming qualities.

WHAT I LIKED

- the visuals, for the most part. The sets and sceneries were breathtaking (Valinor, Lindon, Khâzad-dûm) and I liked a lot of the costume/makeup as well. (Not the male Elves' hair though!) The music, when it was present, was nothing innovative but quite pretty. There were some nice visual gimmicks as well (the evil blood drinking sword and the unfolding paper swan ship, for instance).

- the diversity. It was nice to see a Middle-Earth populated by people who are not all white; it made it seem much more real. Not to mention that it was a welcome 21st century touch. (Funny how the show has been criticised for it, too, when 90% of the main cast are still white or white-passing. One could rather criticise it for not being diverse enough.)

- the cast for the most part. Most of them were doing their best with the terrible dialogue, and while some were quite terribly miscast, it was nice to see a batch of fresh faces. If this had been another Harry Potter/ Game of Thrones ensemble of most prominent British actors again, it would have really broken my immersion.

- the parts with the least bit Tolkien were the best. The adventures of the Harfoots were fun, and I was intrigued at least partly with the Tirharad villagers and their Elvish protectors. Whenever I saw Galadriel/Elrond/Celebrimbor, I was suffering.

WHAT I DISLIKED (...pretty much everything else)

- it was obvious they don't have the rights to The Silmarillion. The fan fiction they replaced it with? Very bland and lacking in depth. The portrayal of Finrod (??) and Galadriel was very cringeworthy in terms of character writing (or at least it had nothing to do with their canon counterparts). You could feel the disconnect when Celebrimbor is talking about Fëanor and cannot even make a reference to the fact that he was his grandfather. Not to mention the little tale of Morgoth weeping over the Silmarils, what the hell was that?

- I just can't get behind the portrayal of Galadriel, Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor when it comes to their ages and personalities. Reeks a bit of sexism to have to make the lady the young and pretty one while she should be the oldest of them by far. (Like, they didn't state their relative ages of course but the casting choices send a powerful message nonetheless.) I would have rather seen a young warrior king Gil-Galad hunting Sauron, and "middle-aged" Galadriel playing the politics in the background. (Or even 30-40-something-looking "career mom" Galadriel juggling raising her daughter and trying to build her own realm at the same time. ) And why is Celebrimbor the eldest of them all? Shouldn't they rather portray him as this young radical craftsman attempting something elder masters would consider a folly?

- the dialogue was just terrible. Half of the time it literally didn't mean anything. They couldn't even stick to the pseudo-Tolkien style - suddenly in the middle of a poetic monologue someone would throw in a word like "project" or "politician" and it would sound incredibly jarring.

- the plot really didn't get going until the second episode. The first episode was actually boring. And after s1e2 the plot is pretty much still all over the place, and there is very little incentive for the audience to care what happens next.

- generally the vibe? Most of the time, I didn't feel like this was Middle-Earth. It could have been any generic Tolkien-inspired fantasy world. The worst individual moment was when one of the human villagers used the slur "knife ears" at Arondir - that was literally straight out of the Dragon Age games!

I'm unsure if I even want to watch the show further, to be honest. Certainly I'm not in a hurry to do so. Quite disappointing, really...

(now I will read the rest of this thread and comment)

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The whole swanship sequence is weird. Galadriel and her soldiers sail the entire way standing in two lines. There are a matching number of veiled maidens along to take their armour off - if sailing is such a great honour, what did they do right? And then when Galadriel hesitates, her second in command believes she has to hold his hand or be... what? It's a boat! It's going to take you to the beach unless you do something ridiculous like jumping off it.

Yes of course she jumps off it. I don't know what her plan was.

This sequence was visually gorgeous but as you aptly describe, very silly. I'm still confused whether Galadriel intended to swim all the way back to Middle-Earth (and how long did she actually swim before being picked up by the shipwrecked humans on the raft).

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I've had a problem with "ackshun gurl" Galadriel ever since I saw the first hint that she would be swinging a sword. Galadriel never picked up a sword in any Tolkien story. Not even once.

Personally, I have more problem with "gurl" part than the "ackshun" part - I still think she shouldn't have been framed as the young hero in this story but rather as one of the older "players of the big game". Like I said, if they wanted a young Elf lord hunting Sauron, Gil-Galad would have fit the bill better. But that being said, I don't mind that they gave her a sword. It isn't in contradiction with what is written about her, even if she was never particularly described as a swordswoman (but an athlete yes!) Also what I find sexist about the whole thing is that she's the only Elf woman who's a warrior, and Not Like Other Girls. If they already decided to make her a sword-swinging warrior, why not the other Elf women? I couldn't help noticing every single other Elf warrior was male. That's very tired, and maybe it could have been a progressive take 50 years ago but not now.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And the Elrond-Galadriel friendship is weird to me as well. If the series plan is to show how the powerful and significant friendship between the two begins and develop that could be interesting. But Elrond's being a bit creepy in what seems like a courting of Galadriel, and Galadriel is does like a "friend zone" thing. What's with adapters hating on Celeborn all the time? It's like people are trying to ship Galadriel with everyone else, except her husband. And the fact Galadriel becomes Elrond's mother-in-law, I hope the series sticks to that canon at least. I could just be over-reacting, like people did with Galadriel kissing Gandalf's forehead in The Hobbit, but it feels like adaptations have no love for Celeborn.

Yeah, the Elrond/Galadriel thing makes me a little uncomfortable and knowing how the story ends just makes me think of Twilight... (the daughter of your crush as an eventual consolation prize for the friend zoned dude... romance plot twists don't really get more cringy than that.) I would have liked to see Celeborn and Celebrían already, but I hope the reason we haven't seen them is that they will actually write a storyline about the Galadriel/Celeborn romance and not so that they can sprinkle in some romantic/sexual tension with her and other characters (which was awkward both with Elrond and Halbrand).

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I liked Episode 2 better than Episode 1, and it all comes down to Khazad-dum. Khazad-dum was truly phenomenal not only visually, but a proper, solid look at dwarf society. I loved everything Khazad-dum. The look, the light and splendor, a vibrant dwarven civilization prior to them "digging too greedily and too deep.

Yes, it was beautiful, and I was intrigued by the ending suggesting they have just, in fact, dug too deep. Also the relationship between Prince Durin and Elrond was one of the few actually interesting/nuanced ones on the show. That all being said, I was disappointed they decided to go the PJ route of using the Dwarves as comic relief. The boisterous Dwarves so prominent in contemporary fantasy never sat right with Tolkien's portrayal of them - where is the dignity of the Dwarf lords (that PJ's Thorin at least had) or the reclusive manners of the traveling Dwarves in Tolkien's writing? Dwarves drinking and burping and playing silly games with an Elf present, or freely displaying physical affection (Durin and Disa) with someone else present just doesn't sit right with me. They should be more stiff, hierarchical and secretive.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Still don't care for Galadriel's storyline, now she's adrift on a plank of wood with some guy name Halbrand, fleeing from the Southlands. Why he was in the middle of the ocean, I mean they explained his ship was attacked, but what are they doing out there in the first place? How they were even in the vicinity of Galadriel? I don't understand the geography at all.

Yes, and presumably he's Theo's missing father? At least there's some intrigue of what actually happened, but as you say, the geography part is very messy.

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

Also Elrond, while Tolkien does not outright state he defeated anyone in physical combat, Tolkien does have him in the War of Wrath, and leading an army in the War of Elves and Sauron.

And the iconic description of him in The Lord of the Rings likens him to a warrior:

The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength.

Personally I would think that for either of Elrond or Galadriel the "warriorness" isn't the primary thing they are, but something in their repertoire. The Elf-lords of old were very "renaissance men" and why wouldn't they be, with all that time to hone various skills in their disposal...

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

the Stranger being Gandalf seemed believable. This could be his backstory as to why he loves the halflings so much. The Darkness he created in the first episode with the trees was similar to the Darkness created in the Hobbit house to Bilbo ("I'm not trying to rob you; I'm trying to help you"). Plus there are similarities between the moth at Isengard and the fireflies.

Our watch group was very baffled as for why did he fall from the sky instead of arriving on a ship with the other Istari, but the Stranger has to be Gandalf. The connection with hobbits and fire, and the not-very-subtle ian-mckellen-y mannersisms (and look) of the actor make it rather obvious. I kind of hate the absolute blasphemy of the plot, but I admit it's one of the few plotlines I'm genuinely curious about in the show.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

- I just can't get behind the portrayal of Galadriel, Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor when it comes to their ages and personalities. Reeks a bit of sexism to have to make the lady the young and pretty one while she should be the oldest of them by far. (Like, they didn't state their relative ages of course but the casting choices send a powerful message nonetheless.) I would have rather seen a young warrior king Gil-Galad hunting Sauron, and "middle-aged" Galadriel playing the politics in the background. (Or even 30-40-something-looking "career mom" Galadriel juggling raising her daughter and trying to build her own realm at the same time. ) And why is Celebrimbor the eldest of them all? Shouldn't they rather portray him as this young radical craftsman attempting something elder masters would consider a folly?

Good to see you here Lommy. I hope the series gets interesting enough for you to keep watching and sharing your opinions. But it would be unfair to ask you to continue watching something that is genuinely a waste of time or too aggravating.

Anyway, Celebrimbor is the only canon-character I thought was pretty close to what I imagined. (Aside from the look. The Look is all out of whack, particularly with the ages of elves in relation to Galadriel's look). But I think his demeanor, motivations, ambitions are pretty much spot on. I loved when he was walking to Khazad-dum with Elrond and speaking in admiration of the dwarven craft, and a genuine "giddiness" to want to see dwarves work their craft. He is described in UT: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn as inheriting the family skill, but not being covetous with his creations. So in the series when he was talking about wanting to bring "beauty" to the world, make the world "unchanged, unmarred" that sounds like Celebrimbor's demeanor. And indeed it is the power of the Elven rings he creates, to preserve the elven way of life, stop the decay of time.

But, I see what you mean how the look just doesn't fit. In talking to Legate I think he said "old mad scientist" which I can't get that out of my head now.

Then we get to Elrond's and Durin's conversation on the elevator and if the show takes it the route of their conversation, then it can be quite interesting. I liked when you were talking about earlier wanting to see diversity with a purpose, something deeper than just the physical differences. We catch a bit of that between Elrond and Durin when Elrond's like "oh it's only been 20 years" and Durin was genuinely upset. How the races view the world differently because of Elven immortality vs mortality and how that causes strain between the races (and actually how Men's desire of immortality is their downfall). More of that, less "let it go knife ears!"

[alatar]

Went in with an open mind and a closed mouth. Whatever appeared on scene is what it is, regardless of what might be in my head or in a book.


Watched the first 2 episodes with my favorite non-book fan (my wife), and despite much temptation, resisted commenting on/clarifying anything onscreen that 'wasn't in the books.'


Some observations:

• When S1E1 starts, I see and hear Hermione Granger. Actually thought that the other children were humans.
• Nice to see Galadriel using her wit (and some elvish magic, as you people call it), when making the swan boat. Hope that this character characteristic shows up again.
• Those other kids were just mean. Did the Valar have the chained Morgoth supervising daycare?
• Finrod already had a dagger in Valinor. Those words for death were about to be spoken.
• The thing about the ice climb thing is that, how did the fortress get supplies? Did the orcs fly up the wall? Or were the elves just being stealthy entering through the back way?
• A snow troll? Will we see beach trolls (they're pretty laid back, but might spill your drink when they walk past with their surf boards...dude!)
• I wished that they'd lingered longer on the 'Sauron symbol' on that rock/alter/forge. Here Amazon could have shown us that same Galadriel wit and magic that 'sees a little deeper.' And then she could have killed the troll.
• Seemingly moments after declaring 'the war's over,' the High King realizes that it's not. Are the writers just being lazy, as it's obvious that the war isn't, so that makes the HK (and everyone listening to them) look stupid.
• The 'elves on a boat' scene was creepy. Did they all have to stand 6 feet apart? It looked more like a punishment. You get to go to paradise and it looks more like the 'renew' scene from Logan's Run. Are the other elves like airline stewards? "We'll be arriving at Valinor in a few moments, so please stow your tray table and look about the cabin for any loose items...especially daggers.
• And that dagger has seen some stuff! From Valinor to ME and almost back again? Heck, would not be surprised if Turin gets to use it in Dagor Dagorath.
• Swim, Galadriel, swim! You built a swan boat from paper. If only the writers permitted you to be smart and clever again.
• Wasn't sure what was going on on the shipwreck scene. Guess everyone died.
• Please, writers, don't pretend that Galadriel's ever in mortal peril. I've see the other movies.
• So the shipwreck savior guy watches the rope being pulled into the water, the same rope that's pulling Galadriel down (not worried that she's going to drown - see above). Wouldn't it have been smarter for shipwreck guy to secure the rope before going into the water to rescue Galadriel? That same weight (or sea dragon) could pull him down as well.
• Would like to see how many people's DNA is on that dagger handle, as now shipwreck guy uses it.
• In other parts of ME, didn't the watch tower elves ever reach out to their 'cousins' and teach them the art of making soap?
• Or maybe they did, and the villagers are using 'goat's milk,' from, you know, goats that grazed out east...
• Please don't make that sword thing that the well dressed elf courting woman's son's playing with be possessed. We already did the One Ring thing in a different movie. And hopefully Dragon Sickness is strictly a dwarven thing (which hopefully we'll see the Golden Dwarf being built in the background).
• Nice to see Khazad-dum with the lights on.
• What door did they enter? And why is there never any worn foot paths to these doors. Dwarves don't travel light.
• Would have been nice to see Elrond not use his strength to break rocks. When he set his hammer down, I actually thought that he was going to some 'magic,' but nope.
• Was surprised to see 'Starman' show up. If it's Gandalf, I'll hate it. If it's Annatar, I will never think of him as scary again, having seen him eat *snails* dished up by a cute hobbit (who also holds him at bay).
• Please don't be Gandalf.

[Tar Elenion]

That was (raw) snails, not clams...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

That was (raw) snails, not clams...

Thanks - now snails.



That beach troll image is still clouding my thinking...do they where board shorts?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I may have to re-evaluate my low opinion of The Wheel of Time (as in, the worst fantasy TV show imaginable). Clearly I'm not imaginative enough.

[Oddwen]

Well here we are again! I have kept my expectations fairly low for the show and will try to keep them so (so you know). Overall I enjoyed the first couple of episodes and I think this will be a show that I enjoy once and never need to see again.


I don't find myself wanting to watch the LotR or Hobbit movies ever again either except in good company, because good company and good memories have been the most enduring thing I got out of them. I hope to get at least one of those out of this show.


Memory is not what the heart desires, be it as clear as Kheled-Zaram...... yeah yeah ok.



I do like the Harfoot scenes the best so far - Nori is very Tookish, and Poppy (who might have shrek ears in her hair?) seems to be written as the next Samwise. Which to my mind is ok because we need more Samwises.



A few folks here have mentioned how jarring it is that Galadriel looks younger than Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, etc. but I like to think it's because she has seen the two trees.



Galadriel and the guy on the raft.......who I will dub Raftwurst because otherwise I would have to look up his real name - has been the most cringeworthy thing thus far. And not just because the first fanfic I ever wrote as a child was about two disney characters stuck on a raft on the open sea. Ahem. It's the circle of life. It's also calling on emotions for characters who haven't inspired them yet.



The sailing to Valinor scene did seem pretty creepy, I bet it will be even more so when Ar-Pharason tries to sail it.



I look forward to seeing more of Celebrimbor, I share B88 and Legate's appreciation for a "mad scientist" type. Charles Edwards (and Trystan Gravelle who will be Ar-Pharazon]) was in "The Terror" which is one of my favorite tv shows, I didn't recognize him until he started talking. I'll forgive him for being a bit too aged (maybe he's just been standing over too many forges). I'm already kind of sad for Celebrimbor's bloody end but I think that will be cool to see. I hope we get to see a lot of the things he makes.



I think that Legate is right about Theodwurst (thanks Pitchwife) = becoming the Witch King of Angmar It would also be pretty cool if that area were to become Mordor / Nurn.



I don't think we've seen the ancestor(s) of Eorl the Young yet.

Originally Posted by alatar

• And that dagger has seen some stuff! From Valinor to ME and almost back again? Heck, would not be surprised if Turin gets to use it in Dagor Dagorath.

Well it's a bit too imposing to be wielded at Knifey Kniforath, that's for sure!

[Lalwendë]

Heralds were and still are prominent roles in British (mostly English and Scots) society. It's a formal role now, and does take the shape of stepping up in a fancy surcoat and announcing VIPs in a pompous manner - "William, fifth of his name, master of helicopters, etcetera".

But heralds were also go betweens or a type of diplomat, carrying out important negotiations on behalf of king or lord. Compared in modern terms they might be a type of civil service permanent secretary, authorised to speak and lead on an issue and represent the 'authority'. There may have been an expectation too to understand heraldry and the extremely complex visual language of shields and emblems, exactly what a scroll might mean when added to a banner, or the power relationships indicated by the quartering on a shield. That makes perfect sense if you are also a type of diplomat - it's important to know that Lord Long is second cousin to Lord Short, and his wife is another of Lord Shirt's cousins on his mother's side etc. They weren't divested with the ability to change arms* - that was and is the Earl Marshall's role.

Heralds weren't really warriors, but they may be involved in armoury as part of a household, and they may have been involved in battle, certainly they'd have to be able to handle themselves even if not part of the ranks.

Book Elrond is definitely keen on banners, so...

One of the aspects of the new series I am keen to see develop. Obvious already that Elrond has had a role negotiating with the dwarves.

* Important to note that 'arms' means either weapons or visual representations of bloodline/connection/honour.

[Boromir88]

Regarding the area the series is calling the Southlands, from what I vaguely recall of the map is as Tar Elenion was directly east of Mordor. So, it looks to be where Gondor would later be established.

I've got no problems with this depiction as I would say it could be from the Elvish perspective of being south of Lindon/Eregion. Boromir is introduced by Elrond as:

"Here," said Elrond, turning to Gandalf, "is Boromir, a man from the South."~The Council of Elrond

In Bree, I think it's Butterbur (it may have been Aragorn) who noted there's a lot of strangers coming from the South. I've thought of them as just being people from Gondor, trying to escape the brooding war. I think there may be some spies from Saruman mixed in, but it seemed like there was angst among the Bree-landers about the new travelers from the South.