Lord of the Rings TV series gets multi-season order at Amazon

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

More than anything, what I resent about this "book that Tolkien never wrote" is its tired and tiresome genericism, its utter and complete lack of anything even resembling creativity or personality. We've all seen it all before, seen these characters, heard these lines:* it's Screen Factory Fantasy Product Sludge #9. If Tolkien is gorau glas, this is Cheez Whiz. The Tolkien branding fits it about as well as a Rolls-Royce grill on a VW Beetle (without the ironic humor). So before we ever even get to questions of weapons or costumes or skin color or actors-who-need-to-shut-up, we have already violated the First Commandment of Tolkien Adaptation: Thou shalt not suck.

So I'm not worried about Tolkien's books being "damaged" - except to the extent that a future generation might go "The Lord of the Rings?" You mean what that turgid, tawdry Amazon tripe was based on? No, thank you." But I'm certainly not going to waste my time watching it -- unless it's someday featured on MST3000...
__________________________________________________ ________
*The ones in the latest trailer are practically examples from the manual, 101 Portentous and Weighty-Sounding Declarations for Talentless Hack Screenwriters

That was humorous. Typical, but humorous. Unlike you, I think Rings of Power will introduce a lot of people to Tolkien's written works, much like what the PJ stuff did, and Bakshi did, and Bass-Rankin did, etc. etc. So what if they sucked, and this sucks. Seeing all the panties getting into a wad over a show that hasn't aired yet is rather telling of the people doing it more than what they are all in a twit about.

[Huinesoron]

As we're about a week out from the first episode airing (or maybe multiple? I've not heard how they're planning to release the series), a few procedural-type questions:

- What are the key sources for the non-Numenorean parts of the Second Age? There's "Galadriel & Celeborn" in UT, and the start of "Of the Rings of Power" in Silm; are there any other major sources?

- I feel like it would be sensible/reasonable to have a thread in Movies for each episode, similar to the Chapter-by-Chapter threads in that subforum of Books. Does that sound okay, or are there enough objections that we should either keep it to this thread or make a single "Rings of Power episodes" thread?

- Given that there are a lot of people who have said they won't be watching the show but are still engaging with the discussion, would it be helpful for the episode thread (whatever that may be) to include a brief synopsis rather than just reactions? Not a scene-by-scene or anything, just a summary of "Galadriel did this, the Harfeet did this, Tom Bombadil did this". (Wait, has anybody speculated that the Stranger in the Meteor might be Tom Bombadil??? I think I'm onto something!)

- Does the Downs have a consensus on how to handle spoilers? For anyone who doesn't know, you can make text invisible <spoiler>like this</spoiler> by replacing pointy brackets with square ones. I can imagine any combination of "do that to big spoilers", "mark the whole post as spoilers", "mark the entire thread as spoilers", "have a spoiler and non-spoiler thread", and "who cares".

hS

[Mithadan]

As I understand it, and I may be wrong about this, Amazon acquired the rights to use information in the LoTR appendices only, not anything in the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or HoME. I wonder how Amazon dealt with rights conveyed to Saul Zaentz, which would have included characters, names, etc. from the text of LoTR.

Feel free to open threads to discuss events in the series or episodes within this forum. I expect that it is not necessary to remind everyone to be respectful to other members regardless of your individual views.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

As I understand it, and I may be wrong about this, Amazon acquired the rights to use information in the LoTR appendices only, not anything in the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or HoME. I wonder how Amazon dealt with rights conveyed to Saul Zaentz, which would have included characters, names, etc. from the text of LoTR.

This is a good point, though there has been a little uncertainty on whether they can request the use of other pieces of the Legendarium.

What I'm really thinking is when discussing the plot, being able to distinguish between things Tolkien wrote, things Tolkien made clear didn't happen, and things Tolkien never said anything about - regardless of whether the showrunners were allowed to use it. For Numenor, that will come from Akallabeth and the Description (plus Lost Road if I'm feeling saucy); but I want to be sure I'm not missing anything obvious in the non-Numenor sections.

hS

[Mithadan]

Based upon what I have seen so far, that may be a prodigious undertaking, but you are welcome to do so.

Please open new threads for your discussions, either by episode or subject.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

As I understand it, and I may be wrong about this, Amazon acquired the rights to use information in the LoTR appendices only, not anything in the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or HoME. I wonder how Amazon dealt with rights conveyed to Saul Zaentz, which would have included characters, names, etc. from the text of LoTR.

I believe it has been clear for some time that with the Tolkien Estate onboard with the Rings of Power production and with Simon Tolkien actively involved with the production that the producers can use various references as approved on a case-by-case basis, and have done so.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

I believe it has been clear for some time that with the Tolkien Estate onboard with the Rings of Power production and with Simon Tolkien actively involved with the production that the producers can use various references as approved on a case-by-case basis, and have done so.

This is at least evident from their use of the map of Númenor in early promo material. That map only appeared in UT, so therefore they have been able to get access to at least some material from UT.

[alatar]

with the Jackson masterpieces.

My, how things appear at a distance.


As stated elsewhere, I didn't like many of PJ's changes to LotR, but (1) at least someone attempted to put the books to film, and (2) not everyone has the same 'vision' when reading Tolkien's works. I appreciated his work on LotR much more once I saw The Hobbit, and saw how bad it all could have been.



Having given it more thought, I'm now more definite about watching RoP. Maybe it won't be what I would have done, but maybe that's a good thing (as I'm not a filmmaker or storyteller by any degree). Going to wait and see.



Maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

[Boromir88]

Hullo, alatar, good to see you around. I look forward to reading your opinions.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by alatar

My, how things appear at a distance.


As stated elsewhere, I didn't like many of PJ's changes to LotR, but (1) at least someone attempted to put the books to film, and (2) not everyone has the same 'vision' when reading Tolkien's works. I appreciated his work on LotR much more once I saw The Hobbit, and saw how bad it all could have been.

I have to say, after two decades of being VERY critical of the Jackson movies, I have softened towards them- largely because until recently I didn't appreciate the force of the argument "It could have been so much worse." Now I fear we are getting a taste of so much worse.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

I believe it has been clear for some time that with the Tolkien Estate onboard with the Rings of Power production and with Simon Tolkien actively involved with the production that the producers can use various references as approved on a case-by-case basis, and have done so.

Mind you, it's unclear whether Simon Tolkien has any actual connection with the running of the Estate; his father pointedly kept him off the Board. The son who assisted Christopher in matters Tolkien was always Adam.

(Simon: so committed to his grandfather's legacy that what did he do with inherited the First Edition copy of The Hobbit JRRT had inscribed to his beloved Aunt Jane Neave - a specific bequest in the Professor's will? ... he flogged it at auction. His falling out with his father was reportedly over Simon's eagerness to play ball with the Jackson movies, and the impression I get of the man -which, in all fairness, may be an impression created by the press - is that he's all about the money).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And, here is a masterful riff on the unending cliches. Priceless!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGr0PhNO5LM

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

For anyone who doesn't know, you can make text invisible <spoiler>like this</spoiler> by replacing pointy brackets with square ones.

Weird enough, on my phone the text shows up in grey but very visible letters. I mean, I know this code trick thingy works, I've used it before. Maybe the browser got an update or summink and now it's too fancy for its own good? Is it just me or does everyone's spoiler cover not actually cover anything anyore?

As one of those people who might watch some of the show to start at least, but probably not right as it comes out, I think it makes sense for each episode thread to be one giant spoiler - in the sense that don't open the thread if you don't want it spoiled, and talk freely once you're in it. But elsewhere on the Downs it might be courteous to hide the bigger spoiler elements. I am also a fan of the brief synopsis in the first post for all the reasons you said. Whether one giant thread or many small ones... uhh, hard to say. But it wouldn't be wrong to do many threads, I think, even if each one individually might only get so many responses.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

- I feel like it would be sensible/reasonable to have a thread in Movies for each episode, similar to the Chapter-by-Chapter threads in that subforum of Books. Does that sound okay, or are there enough objections that we should either keep it to this thread or make a single "Rings of Power episodes" thread?

- Given that there are a lot of people who have said they won't be watching the show but are still engaging with the discussion, would it be helpful for the episode thread (whatever that may be) to include a brief synopsis rather than just reactions? Not a scene-by-scene or anything, just a summary of "Galadriel did this, the Harfeet did this, Tom Bombadil did this". (Wait, has anybody speculated that the Stranger in the Meteor might be Tom Bombadil??? I think I'm onto something!)

- Does the Downs have a consensus on how to handle spoilers? For anyone who doesn't know, you can make text invisible <spoiler>like this</spoiler> by replacing pointy brackets with square ones. I can imagine any combination of "do that to big spoilers", "mark the whole post as spoilers", "mark the entire thread as spoilers", "have a spoiler and non-spoiler thread", and "who cares".

I've had a Prime account since before this was happening and regardless if I continue watching the series or not, I'm keeping my account. Anyway, I think a separate thread to discuss the episodes would be necessary. This thread is already quite bulky and has probably run its course once Episode 1 airs.

I don't recall any strict policies on spoilers. When threads opened discussing The Hobbit movies when they hit theaters, the thread opener always started with a spoiler warning and the posters followed suit if their posts contained spoilers. Having a **Spoiler Warning** in the thread title I would guess would be sufficient to let us know this thread will contain spoilers. I prefer simplicity to out right forbidding spoilers, or blocking the text out. But, I won't be the one starting the episode discussions, I'll just be reading and hopefully interested in the series enough to share my opinions.

[Michael Murry]

I don't know if I can get this image link thing working correctly, but:



When my Taiwanese wife saw this picture she immediately pointed to the long blond braid dangling down in front of all that armor nearly to the waist and noted how easy it would be to grab the white chick by the hair, wrap it around [their]* throat, and strangle [them]* with it.

* transgender, non-binary pronoun corrections for the now unacceptable "her."

[Mithadan]

Michael, on the other hand, sailors in the British navy during the Napoleonic Wars and earlier were proud of their long braided hair regardless of the possibility that their locks might be used against them. Fashion was and is a passion...

Galadriel, my strong preference for threads regarding the series is individual and separate by subject or episode or both as appropriate. Sprawling threads with a general subject matter are neither reader nor poster-friendly. I would much rather hear peoples' thoughts than have members' eyes glaze over at the volume of what must be read in a single thread.

[Michael Murry]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Michael, on the other hand, sailors in the British navy during the Napoleonic Wars and earlier were proud of their long braided hair regardless of the possibility that their locks might be used against them. Fashion was and is a passion...

As a veteran of Uncle Sam's Canoe Club (a.k.a., the U.S. Navy) I recall lectures in Basic Training (in 1966) about how our navy differed from that of the British which -- according to Lord of the Admiralty Sir Winston Churchill -- ran on "Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash." I wonder how General/Admiral Guardrail the Terrifying will handle those LGBTQ+ [not to mention pronoun] issues as [their] [Rainbow] Ships pass out of and back into The West.

[Michael Murry]

For those whose "governments" haven't outlawed access to anything and everything "Russian," see: https://www.rt.com/pop-culture/56145...peter-jackson/

For others, I'll post the article here:

What can really kill Amazon’s Rings of Power
Despite a vastly greater budget, the new show will have a tough time matching Peter Jackson’s epic trilogy in a new era

(August 26, 2022)By Andrey Rachkin, KHL administrator, avid gamer, RT Games and Culture contributor.

With the release of the first major Tolkien adaptation since 2014, many wonder how the show will find itself in a different world from the one of Peter Jackson’s trilogies.

When in 2017 Amazon announced it was making a show about The Lord of the Rings and sparing no expense, making it the biggest-budget TV series at an eye-watering $1 billion over five seasons, many fans were rejoicing. After all, this was at the time of Game of Thrones season 7, one of the most popular and influential shows in history, at maximum hype capacity, building up to its grand finale. HBO even took two years to make season 8 instead of the usual one, to ensure the biggest, the baddest, the best conclusion to the show. When it finally released, reality was not too kind to the last season of Game of Thrones, nor to its fanbase, nor even to its legacy – it strikes you to remember how much we talked about it, how many good-natured jokes we made before the last season, and how little we even mention it after that. Like a collective hangover walk of shame. (Shame? Shame!)

And there is good reason to be fearful that ‘The Rings of Power’ might share the same fate. There are many opinions on why that might be, and while some are wilder than the others, there is a good chance the show might not end up being the instant classic it wants to be.

The Fellowship of the Book

Tolkien’s work is truly the root of the fantasy genre as we know it. Any time the word ‘elf’ is mentioned, chances are the images conjured by your mind are of tall, ethereal, nearly immortal, infinitely wise, and infinitely prideful people. The same level of instant recognition is shared by orcs, and even dragons, which were much more niche and folklore in Europe a century ago. Tolkien was not the first author to write fantasy, of course, even the fairy tales we tell our children before bed are technically fantasy stories. But Tolkien wrote The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings so lovingly and so masterfully that he influenced the minds and lives of millions of people, one of them being George Lucas, when he was creating his space opera, Star Wars.

Tolkien created a timeless piece of work, with its themes finding their way to the heart of any person of any nation at any period of history. Naturally, there is always room for interpretation. But how much interpretation is too much? While altering the timeline of the Second Age and casting black actors to play dwarfs and elves is nothing bad in itself, will the series be a loving homage to the books or a deliberate reflection of 2022 America? The comment section of the show’s Super Bowl trailer on YouTube was quickly filled with the same alleged quote by Tolkien, “Evil is not capable of creating anything new, it can only distort and destroy what has been invented or made by the forces of good,” in several languages. This quote isn’t found in any of the books, but is most likely paraphrased or double-translated from a passage in ‘The Return of the King’, “The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own.” That does not inspire confidence.

The Return of Ka-ching

What comes after a good book? Right, a mediocre film adaptation. There were many attempts in transitioning Tolkien’s book into film or animation, but since the 1950s, many of them drowned in various legal and creative struggles, which included turning feature-length projects into short films, intellectual rights resales, and general under-the-public-radar performance. The only exception was Peter Jackson’s trilogy, which for many is the only adaptation of the books they know. And here lies the possible reason why ‘The Rings of Power’ might end up in the forgettables basket, rather than up there with the Jackson masterpieces. Before making his LotR trilogy, Jackson used to write, film, and act in extremely low-budget horror projects, so he knew how to use practical effects, capture audiences, and tell a story with tight resources. Necessity is the mother of invention, after all. That experience led the New Zealander to create one of the most influential film trilogies of all time, using ‘only’ US$280 million across three films.

This is where ‘The Rings of Power’ stands out. When Game of Thrones and, more recently, The Witcher started relatively modestly, with 60-80 million for their first seasons, the Amazon-backed project is boasting a healthy 460 million. Adding to this unprecedented amount of money, the show has been cleared for five seasons even before shooting began. With these kinds of coffers, the creative team may, ironically, cut some corners in their character development and storytelling, and throw money at CGI people instead, making grandiose scenes just for the sake of grandeur, all the while providing the viewer with regular shock twists to keep their attention. Even Peter Jackson began to rely more heavily on CGI in the ‘The Return of the King’, and even more so in The Hobbit trilogy, which may have contributed to the ‘slump’ in quality that viewers noted in the second and third Hobbit films.

The Too Towering

In general, the anticipation for ‘The Rings of Power’ is quite high – people are making Spotify playlists, analyzing the characters shown on posters and in trailers (poor costume design and quality are popular concerns), which makes it even more worrisome that people might be let down by the end result. Some expect it to be ‘Jackson’s trilogy meets Game of Thrones’, while others are eager for something new in the franchise. But given everything that is going on in the world, where style and agenda pandering often triumph over substance, the show’s creators may have a bulletproof safety net for themselves. If ‘The Rings of Power’ flops, you can always point fingers at any number of common enemies – racism, white supremacy, or uncultured masses in general.

Whatever happens, it is undeniable that ‘The Rings of Power’ will leave a huge mark on the cultural landscape. It is too big and too meaningful not to do so. There will always be people looking for chinks in the armor, or praising something to the Moon just because a certain actor was cast. The only thing that we can do is watch the show when it comes out, make up our own opinions about it, and not give into peer pressure. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.