New Tolkien coming! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 08-11-2022, 01:40 PM

Oh, yes, the asterisks. Tolkien mostly used them to denote important dates: Frodo's wounding at Weathertop, the Council of Elrond, the Breaking of the Fellowship, Helm's Deep, the fall of Sauron (really big one there).

zionius · 08-11-2022, 10:40 PM

Mr. Hicklin, thank you very much for taking time for this extremely detailed answer! I only have three remaining questions:

p. 44. I think maybe Tolkien later rejected moving the boxed cell on Jan 18 to Jan 17, by adding bars on the arrow. So it fixes the inconsistency discussed in footnote 53. (RC 360 also says this event is Jan 18)

And I find pictures of two more MS pages, so two new errata suggestions for C40:
"9 [6>]8 [F>]𝒮". The MS have two lines, one seems to be "8 7 S" with "7 S" removed, another seems to be "9 7 S" with "7 S" changed to "8 𝒮". So I think Tolkien's intention might be "[8 7 S>]9 8 𝒮".
"they go by winding ways." should be "they go by winding ways.)".

William Cloud Hicklin · 08-12-2022, 05:19 AM

Quote:

"9 [6>]8 [F>]��". The MS have two lines, one seems to be "8 7 S" with "7 S" removed, another seems to be "9 7 S" with "7 S" changed to "8 ��". So I think Tolkien's intention might be "[8 7 S>]9 8 ��".

The left-hand column, of "modern" dates, was added later in pencil after the SR dates had been corrected and changed, so I think 8 and 9 are out of the conversation here. The original date entry for the Company reaching Hollin has been crossed out beyond recall; while it is a logical deduction that it said 5 S, I couldn't include suppositions.

Also, the original number changed to 8 was 6, not 7

Quote:

they go by winding ways

Yes, the closing bracket was omitted inadvertently

Quote:

p. 44. I think maybe Tolkien later rejected moving the boxed cell on Jan 18 to Jan 17

I don't believe so; Tolkien frequently ornamented things like arrows, as a natural doodler; notice that the arrow also has an elaborate tail tuft as well! When he crossed things out, he usually did so emphatically and unmistakably.

------------------------------

I must express some surprise that you have obtained reproductions of pp 2,3 and 8, since acc. to Bill Fliss only pp. 6, 9 and 10 have ever been published. Where did they come from?

zionius · 08-12-2022, 09:58 AM

Thanks for the insights! 2,3,6,8 are published in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu (9782717728064). https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules...hibition%20Map

zionius · 08-13-2022, 04:21 AM

I note a very interesting thing: All the data of Orcs' movement from Feb.27-28 are based on the careful calculation in MSS 4/2/19/11a (image published in Voyage en Terre du Milieu). I guess other calculations in 4/2/19 finally entered the Schemes too.

S3 says: [Feb 27] At 8 a.m. the Isengarders are 36 miles out on plain: seen by Legolas. By nightfall Orcs are going faster are 72 miles on way. They reach S. end of Downs at 9 p.m. [Feb 28] Isengarders pass N. end of Downs at 4:30 a.m; rest at a point 5 miles beyond. At 5 a.m they go on till 10 a.m (seen by Riders), and are then 25 miles N. of downs, and turn towards eaves of Fangorn (25 m. further on). Rest till 10:30 a.m.

MSS 4/2/19/11a says:
[Feb 26] go on at 4mph
7-8[am] 36 miles [here wrote something that could be "seen by Legolas" but doesn't look like so]
8-midday 52[miles]
rest 1/2 hour
12:30-5:30pm 72 miles (Sun down)
rest 1/2 hour
6-11pm 92 miles reach S. end of Downs about 9pm
rest 1/2 hour
11:30-4:30am([Feb]27) 112[mil]
Now clear of Downs, and 5 miles begin rest 1/2 hour till 5am
5am-10am 132 miles
22 N. of Downs

William Cloud Hicklin · 08-13-2022, 06:03 PM

Folder 19 is a fascinating miscellany, into which (presumably) Christopher put everything related to distance or measurement which didn't seem to fit with anything else. It includes inter alia "Hobbit long measures," and a remarkably large number of nots on ent-strides and how fast ents could travel

zionius · 08-13-2022, 11:58 PM

Yes, this is one of the most interesting folders for me. “Hobbit Long Measures” and “ent-stride” are published in Maker and Reader's Companion.

08-11-2022, 01:40 PM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Oh, yes, the asterisks. Tolkien mostly used them to denote important dates: Frodo's wounding at Weathertop, the Council of Elrond, the Breaking of the Fellowship, Helm's Deep, the fall of Sauron (really big one there). __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

08-13-2022, 04:21 AM	#5
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 18	I note a very interesting thing: All the data of Orcs' movement from Feb.27-28 are based on the careful calculation in MSS 4/2/19/11a (image published in Voyage en Terre du Milieu). I guess other calculations in 4/2/19 finally entered the Schemes too. S3 says: [Feb 27] At 8 a.m. the Isengarders are 36 miles out on plain: seen by Legolas. By nightfall Orcs are going faster are 72 miles on way. They reach S. end of Downs at 9 p.m. [Feb 28] Isengarders pass N. end of Downs at 4:30 a.m; rest at a point 5 miles beyond. At 5 a.m they go on till 10 a.m (seen by Riders), and are then 25 miles N. of downs, and turn towards eaves of Fangorn (25 m. further on). Rest till 10:30 a.m. MSS 4/2/19/11a says: [Feb 26] go on at 4mph 7-8[am] 36 miles [here wrote something that could be "seen by Legolas" but doesn't look like so] 8-midday 52[miles] rest 1/2 hour 12:30-5:30pm 72 miles (Sun down) rest 1/2 hour 6-11pm 92 miles reach S. end of Downs about 9pm rest 1/2 hour 11:30-4:30am([Feb]27) 112[mil] Now clear of Downs, and 5 miles begin rest 1/2 hour till 5am 5am-10am 132 miles 22 N. of Downs Last edited by zionius; 08-13-2022 at 08:53 AM.

08-13-2022, 06:03 PM	#6
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Folder 19 is a fascinating miscellany, into which (presumably) Christopher put everything related to distance or measurement which didn't seem to fit with anything else. It includes inter alia "Hobbit long measures," and a remarkably large number of nots on ent-strides and how fast ents could travel __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

08-11-2022, 10:40 PM	#2
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 18	Mr. Hicklin, thank you very much for taking time for this extremely detailed answer! I only have three remaining questions: p. 44. I think maybe Tolkien later rejected moving the boxed cell on Jan 18 to Jan 17, by adding bars on the arrow. So it fixes the inconsistency discussed in footnote 53. (RC 360 also says this event is Jan 18) And I find pictures of two more MS pages, so two new errata suggestions for C40: "9 [6>]8 [F>]𝒮". The MS have two lines, one seems to be "8 7 S" with "7 S" removed, another seems to be "9 7 S" with "7 S" changed to "8 𝒮". So I think Tolkien's intention might be "[8 7 S>]9 8 𝒮". "they go by winding ways." should be "they go by winding ways.)".

08-12-2022, 09:58 AM	#4
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 18	Thanks for the insights! 2,3,6,8 are published in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu (9782717728064). https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules...hibition%20Map

08-13-2022, 11:58 PM	#7
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 18	Yes, this is one of the most interesting folders for me. “Hobbit Long Measures” and “ent-stride” are published in Maker and Reader's Companion.