"Concerning... 'The Hoard'" revealed

[Mithadan]

There are a number of "inconsistencies" between Concerning... The Hoard and The Silmarillion. I have not gone back and compared these to the various HoME versions of tales, but note a few, certainly not all, here in addition to those mentioned above. Again, I question whether these are a matter of JRRT working from memory without his drafts in front of him, whether he was engaging in "stream of consciousness" rewriting or revising his prior work as experimentation, or if this is simply a hurried summary not necessarily comporting to his final conceptions (assuming that there were any on details of his work). Regardless of the date of this note, it is pure speculation to assume that anything in The Hoard represents his "final" decisions.

In The Silmarillion, Hurin does not laugh in contempt at Thingol and leave Doriath, but rather Melian speaks to him, breaking the spell of deceit put upon him by Morgoth, and Hurin apologizes.

The cause of the failure of the Girdle of Melian seems glib and conclusory or confused. Her power failed due to the evil "within" Doriath (which evil, the treatment of the Dwarves or the presence of the treasure?) or Melian lifted it, dismayed at the deed that had been "done" (which deed?). If the latter, I wonder if this is a timing issue. If Thingol had been slain (per The Silmarillion), I can see Melian departing into the West leaving Doriath unprotected. If Thingol was still alive, I doubt that she would simply let the Girdle fail.

The Hoard implies that Galadriel went into the east after the War of Wrath. This was something that was undecided per JRRT's late writings in Unfinished Tales. She may have left Beleriand earlier.

The narrative mentions that after the Darkening of Valinor, the Valar first asked that Feanor turn over the Silmarils, then demanded it after he declined, resulting in his rebellion. This is very inconsistent with prior versions and even implies that some blame for the rebellion of the Noldor rests with the Valar.

The Hoard also seems to imply that Earendil's star rose after the War of Wrath. This may be an interpretation or it may reflect that the summary nature of the document resulted in it being unorganized and ambiguous.

It does make for interesting discussion...

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

There are a number of "inconsistencies" between Concerning... The Hoard and The Silmarillion.

It's definitely worth doing a full comparison of "Concerning" with the other texts, but I will point out that:

Originally Posted by Mithadan

In The Silmarillion, Hurin does not laugh in contempt at Thingol and leave Doriath, but rather Melian speaks to him, breaking the spell of deceit put upon him by Morgoth, and Hurin apologizes.

Is attested nowhere except the published Silmarillion, and is not mentioned in CT's note on "Text X". Given that literally every other character in the Turin tale ends badly, the fact that Hurin gets a redemption moment feels like exactly the sort of "overstepping the bounds of the editorial function" that CT regretted in his commentary in HoME XI.

Similarly,

Originally Posted by Mithadan

The cause of the failure of the Girdle of Melian seems glib and conclusory or confused. Her power failed due to the evil "within" Doriath (which evil, the treatment of the Dwarves or the presence of the treasure?) or Melian lifted it, dismayed at the deed that had been "done" (which deed?). If the latter, I wonder if this is a timing issue. If Thingol had been slain (per The Silmarillion), I can see Melian departing into the West leaving Doriath unprotected. If Thingol was still alive, I doubt that she would simply let the Girdle fail.

There is no narrative by Tolkien which puts Thingol outside the Girdle at his death. This idea was suggested by Tolkien in a single note on the "Turins Saga" sheet, which seems to date from the early 1950s (ie, before the Narn synopsis in my timeline earlier). "Concerning" is ten years later, and should at least be considered as an alternate solution to the question.

Okay: working from memory, here are the differences between "Concerning" and the other latest texts.

The story concerns the great hoard of Nargothrond, which contained much of the treasure and works of Elvish art that has been preserved from the wreckage of the Elven-Kingdoms under the assault of the Dark Lord

I don't remember any statements that Nargothrond took refugees and treasures from the other kingdoms; that must mean Mithrim, right?

Húrin’s Kingdom was destroyed

Implies Hurin was a king; but could mean "the elvish kingdom Hurin was a lord in".

[Turin] fled from Doriath after a deed of violence in the King’s hall, and became a wandering warrior (or knight-errant).

Turin's key act of violence was normally outside Menegroth. The knight-errant phrasing is an interesting one, and puts a different conception on Turin, at least for me.

All the Hurin/Thingol differences previously noted: the outlaws reach Doriath and are slain there, the Nauglamir is silver, Thingol wants silver thrones, no first battle with the dwarves, the Girdle falls due to the evil done inside (which must be Thingol's breach of his oath, contrasted with the "dwarven honesty"), and Thingol seemingly dies in Menegroth.

Fugitives from Doriath brought news to Beren in Ossiriand, especially of the rape of the Silmaril. He gathered a force and waylaid the Dwarves on their return march, at a ford across one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”.

In the Tale of Years, this battle is by the sons of Feanor, with Melian taking the Nauglamir to B&L. Similarly, no two versions agree on who told Beren about the attack.

the ship-havens at the mouths of the great River Sirion, where was the last refuge of the remnants of the Kingdoms of Elves and Men

Balar appears to be ignored here, though this looks like just brevity.

the Sons of the Valar aided by the remnants of the Elves and the Dúnedain (or Men of Elf-alliance) overcame the Dark Lord

I don't believe the elves are usually said to have joined the Last Battle. "Sons of the Valar" is a phrase which doesn't occur much in later texts, but could easily be metaphorical.

the Elf Kingdoms were at an end

Seems to ignore the existence of Lindon.

Some passed over the Mountains (e.g. in particular Galadriel) into the lands which are the scene of the Lord of the Rings.

As Mithadan says, Tolkien was very undecided on Galadriel's timeline. This aligns with the text called "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" in UT; it doesn't match the "very late and partly illegible note... set down in the last month of his life" given just above it.

Eärendil, who had first set foot upon the “immortal” land of the Valar, was not permitted to return to mortal lands, but his ship was set to sail in the heavens as a star, lit by the brilliance of the Silmaril.

Again per Mithadan, this kind of implies the Star only rose after the Battle. Given that Earendil was out there shooting down dragons, it's fair to say that this was when he was finally sent upstairs, and it's not a clear enough statement to be a revision.

But the last surviving sons of Feänor (Maedros and Maglor), in a despairing attempt to carry out the Oath, stole [the Silmarils] again. But they were tormented by them, and at last they perished each with a jewel: one in a fiery cleft in the earth, and one in the sea.

Per gondowe, this seems to be the only source for the death of Maglor. It also uses the name "Maglor", at a time when Tolkien seems to have switched over to "Maelor"; I'm not sure what the situation is with "Maedros".

The “War of the Rings” is, as it were, a breaking out again of the “Wars of the Jewels”, though in a different mode.

This is an interesting concept! I don't remember him saying it elsewhere, and it certainly puts a different spin on the Third Age: not a great conflict in its own right, but the last ragtag end of the battles of the First Age.

The Silmarils were made by Feänor, greatest of the Elves, and chief of all craftsmen, originally with no motive but the making of beauty.

HA! Does anyone believe that?

when the Valar commanded him to relinquish them (since the light which gave them their beauty and sanctity was theirs, and had only been lent to him) he became obdurate, and rebelled

This is certainly based on Tulkas' words, and Feanor's, but the explicit command isn't one I remember being in other sources. Tolkien was drifting towards a less pro-Manwe view, so it's possible this was an actual shift; but I think this story was told again after "Concerning", so probably just a compression. (What they actually did was imply they would command him, which led to his rant comparing them to Melkor.)

Feanor then with his Seven Sons, swore the abominable Oath, to hold anyone Elf or Vala, even the One, his enemy if they held or retained a Silmaril and did not surrender it.

I don't think there's another version of the Oath which holds Iluvatar as an enemy if he takes a Silmaril; most of them just call him as witness. And, y-i-i-i-kes.

Morgoth’s triumph became almost complete. All the Kingdoms of Elves and their allies were destroyed. Beleriand was ruined and ravaged. Only the capture of one Silmaril by Beren and Luthien marred his success. It came at last to the remnant of the Elves of the “Mouths of Sirion”, and so to Eärendil — and so brought the vengeance of the Valar upon him at last — when it was surrendered to the Valar, and set out of reach of Elves and Men.

A really interesting footnote; because of the Silm's focus on the refugees, I don't usually register the completeness of Morgoth's victory. I also note that the Silmaril was "surrendered to the Valar"; I don't recall that phrasing before, usually Earendil just sort of uses it to get to them and then keeps it.

The Silmarils had become to Feanor symbols and instruments of power: he called himself “the lord of the lights”.

Feanor getting in on the too-many-names game. This is presented totally out of order (unless Feanor lived to the end of the First Age! There's no mention of his death in LotR, you know. ), and I can only imagine he used it in Formenos. Probably wrote it above the door: "Welcome to Formenos, House of the Lord of the Lights; abandon humility, all ye who enter here".

Hmm... apart from the death of Maglor, and the whole Nauglamir section, all of these strike me as reasonable compression of the "text" at the time. They're not always the latest comments Tolkien had - see Galadriel - but they don't seem wildly at odds with 1964 Tolkien. Though like I said, I'm working from memory, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'd got an error or two in there.

hS

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Per gondowe, this seems to be the only source for the death of Maglor.

Letter 131 is another source:
"The remaining two Silmarils are regained from the Iron Crown — only to be lost. The last two sons of Fëanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth. The ship of Earendil adorned with the last Silmaril is set in heaven as the brightest star. So ends The Silmarillion and the tales of the First Age."

and compared with Concerning the Hoard:
"The other two Silmarils were also taken by the Valar from the crown of Morgoth. But the last surviving sons of Feänor (Maedros and Maglor), in a despairing attempt to carry out the Oath, stole them again. But they were tormented by them, and at last they perished each with a jewel: one in a fiery cleft in the earth, and one in the sea.
So the three Silmarils were lost for ever “until the remaking of the world”: in air, earth, and sea. Thus ended the First Age."

Edit:
Going through Letter 131 similar comparisons in verbiage can be drawn, e.g.:
"The chief of the stories of the Silmarillion, and the one most fully treated is the Story of Beren and Lúthien the Elfmaiden."
Letter 131

"The most important “tale” in this [[† network?]] of legend is that of Beren and Lúthien, but as that is sketched in the Lord of the Rings it is not told here."
Concerning...
et.al.

[Mithadan]

I agree with Findegal that having Hurin transport to Doriath only the Nauglamir (with the corresponding following events that the Dwarven smiths slew Thingol in his treasury, and, later, the Dwarves assault Doriath presumably after the Girdle falls) is the smoothest narrative presenting the fewest problems. What, in our view, works best does not equate to what JRRT would have written and therein lies the dilemma.

Whether The Hoard or any other note or fragment was Tolkien's final conception is and will likely always be a matter for debate. The quirks and different versions of the tales presented in The Hoard are worthy of discussion, analysis and debate. But I am now of the school holding that unless the mythical "final draft" or "final outline" by Tolkien emerges, there is no certain resolution. Latest in time is, to me, not enough. This does not mean that we should not ponder what that missing or nonexistent final draft might or might not include and discuss why.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I agree with Findegal that having Hurin transport to Doriath only the Nauglamir (with the corresponding following events that the Dwarven smiths slew Thingol in his treasury, and, later, the Dwarves assault Doriath presumably after the Girdle falls) is the smoothest narrative presenting the fewest problems. What, in our view, works best does not equate to what JRRT would have written and therein lies the dilemma.

Whether The Hoard or any other note or fragment was Tolkien's final conception is and will likely always be a matter for debate. The quirks and different versions of the tales presented in The Hoard are worthy of discussion, analysis and debate. But I am now of the school holding that unless the mythical "final draft" or "final outline" by Tolkien emerges, there is no certain resolution. Latest in time is, to me, not enough. This does not mean that we should not ponder what that missing or nonexistent final draft might or might not include and discuss why.

Since we are, thankfully, not Christopher Tolkien trying to publish a version of the Silmarillion faithful to his father's "true" vision, there's a lot less pressure on us to figure out exactly what is going on in these various texts...

... but it is still confusing to me that so many Downers are trying to work "Text X" and Finrod's Nauglamir into the 'final' conception.

Christopher Tolkien literally wrote a multi-page essay apologising for using that version of the story. It wasn't until 2017 that he ever mentioned that there was any JRRT source for it. Yes, it's possible to construct a scenario whereby it has priority over "Concerning", or the two stories should be merged, or whatnot, but every single relevant JRRT text we have access to, across more than 40 years, confirms that the Nauglamir was made for Thingol. There is no source even hinting at an earlier origin until 2017. (The published Silmarillion introduction of the necklace is derived from the BoLT description, for instance - the 'flax' sentence is very distinctive.)

Honestly, given the apology note, the most likely scenario is that 2017 CT mis-remembered, and Finrod's Nauglamir was invented for the published Silm. Failing that, I think my theory of it being a brief note in the pre-"Wanderings" material holds up. I've not seen any evidence of a substantial, definitive "Text X" which should displace "Concerning".

There are certainly parts of "Concerning" that need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Thingol dying on a hunt is common to every full version of the tale, so it's plausible that Tolkien simply forgot to mention that Thingol was killed prior to the Girdle falling, and had to tack it onto the end of the sentence. The loss of the "Tale of Years" story whereby the battle with the dwarves is shifted to Celegorm & Curufin (in this and another letter) seems likely to be him forgetting the proposed change entirely, or simply wanting his letters to align with his manuscripts rather than his jottings. But in the absence of any other evidence, and with CT's note in HoME XI to go by, I can't believe that Finrod's Nauglamir was ever more than a passing notion.

(As to the outlaws attacking Thingol and being killed... it kind of fits with the whole Narn, to my view. Asg(r)on is a sympathetic character who helps Turin and joins the lawful Lord of his house; he's only an 'outlaw' from the occupiers. But every single sympathetic character who attaches themselves to Hurin or his children winds up destroyed by the end of the story, so why would Asg(r)on be any different?)

hS

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

Letter 131 is another source:
"The remaining two Silmarils are regained from the Iron Crown — only to be lost. The last two sons of Fëanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth. The ship of Earendil adorned with the last Silmaril is set in heaven as the brightest star. So ends The Silmarillion and the tales of the First Age."

Good catch, the ever-present letter helping us again. I, accustomed to the translation into Spanish, had not noticed it.

Greetings

[Tar Elenion]

What does the Spanish translation make it say?

[gondowe]

The same. But in the understanding is ambiguous. Could mean only the jewels were cast. and is a passage that can be easyly overread.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I don't remember any statements that Nargothrond took refugees and treasures from the other kingdoms; that must mean Mithrim, right?

Tiny side-point: Mithrim could certainly be part of the source for the treasure and refugees here, particularly after the Nirnaeth, but it's hardly alone: Nargothrond is the last bastion of the wider Finarfinian realm, and was the last-built part of it--there was Dorthonion and Minas Tirith, each with a Finwëan or two resident, and it's quite probable that there were Elves once settled across West Beleriand who retreated to Nargothrond after the Bragollach, and we're told in the published Silm that the Finarfinians brought the greatest number of treasures with the out of Valinor.

And there's also the Fëanorians: Celegorm and Curufin, obviously, with plenty of indications that some of their people (see: Celebrimbor) and maybe things stayed behind when they were driven out by Orodreth after the death of Finrod.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

( . . .) There is no narrative by Tolkien which puts Thingol outside the Girdle at his death. This idea was suggested by Tolkien in a single note on the "Turins Saga" sheet, which seems to date from the early 1950s (ie, before the Narn synopsis in my timeline earlier). "Concerning" is ten years later, and should at least be considered as an alternate solution to the question.

I note that you write "seems" to date from the 1950s, and I've no problem with that. I'm just wondering if these notes could be later, perhaps even very much later . . . so, anything preventing this?

I couldn't find Hammond and Scull attempting to date 'em. Christopher Tolkien explains that the word "cannot" [invasion of Doriath] "may well have been written against the entry for 503 in The Tale of Years at the same time as this." And "this" refers to the note about Thingol being lured outside his borders (and slain), which is said to be written at the same time as the other "Turin's Saga" page of notes.

So (unless I've missed something obvious), I can't yet find a certain connection to these ideas and the dating of the Tale of Years. That's not to say I think your chronology is not well thought out, I'm just wondering how certain we can be.

For example, there's a marginal note to section 149 of The Annals of Aman (the typescript, itself dating about 1958) that seems very late indeed -- judging by the content, I would say the note itself is post 1967.

Anyway, again just wondering'

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Honestly, given the apology note, the most likely scenario is that 2017 CT mis-remembered, and Finrod's Nauglamir was invented for the published Silm. Failing that, I think my theory of it being a brief note in the pre-"Wanderings" material holds up. I've not seen any evidence of a substantial, definitive "Text X" which should displace "Concerning".

I wouldn't dismiss Text X's existence out of hand, however; there are mountains of JRRT manuscripts which have never been published, neither in HoME nor anywhere else. Although sometimes I suspect Christopher would have published every scrap had he been able to, in reality he was constrained both by deadlines and length limitations (IIRC, one of the volumes of HME had to be substantially rewritten to fit it within the set page cap)

[Arvegil145]

From the Translations from the Elvish forum:

In all my time reading about the numerous arguments over the CtH, I've yet to see this one (which to me, at least, seems obvious as day):

Could the evil within mentioned as a possible cause for the downfall of the Girdle of Melian in Concerning... 'The Hoard' be as simple as Hurin's sheer admittance to Doriath?

That man, after he was released from Angband, has been a walking, talking doomsday device for anyone and anything close to him.


While I originally despised Turgon for not admitting Hurin into Gondolin immediately - given all the things he has done to save Gondolin's hide - I now honestly think that it might have been for the best.

Hurin, just by his sheer presence in the vicinity of Gondolin managed to tip off Morgoth to Gondolin's general location - after which, it was only a matter of time until Gondolin itself was found.

But given the fact that every realm (and people!) who had given him any acceptance after his release ended up absolutely demolished, it makes me think that Gondolin would've somehow manage to fall to ruin even earlier than had Turgon not hesitated about letting him in: which would've essentially killed all hope (i.e. Earendil) that the people of Beleriand had.

After all, Hurin's epithet Thalion ("Steadfast") goes both ways - steadfast in friendship and loyalty (almost to an insane degree), and steadfast in utter hatred and destruction of all that he deems responsible for his family's demise (real or imagined).


One other thing - the dragon-spell(s) is very much a real thing in Tolkien's universe (evidenced by this text and The Hobbit, as well as The Children of Hurin): which makes Hurin even scarier and his raw hatred for everything and everyone even more formidable, given the fact that he single-handedly managed to control this group of hardened warriors/outlaws no doubt possessed by the dragon-spell with his sheer presence alone - with the outlaws only giving in to temptation of the (Dragon)-hoard of Nargothrond (and the resultant battle with Thingol's guards) after Hurin leaves.

Anyway - just a cool little detail.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Could the evil within mentioned as a possible cause for the downfall of the Girdle of Melian in Concerning... 'The Hoard' be as simple as Hurin's sheer admittance to Doriath?

That man, after he was released from Angband, has been a walking, talking doomsday device for anyone and anything close to him.

The combined effect you're talking about - Morgoth's curse + Glaurung's spell + Mim's spell + Hurin's curse (on Thingol) - certainly seems metaphysically potent. Is there precendent for a powerful force like this negating an opposing force?

• Finrod's grave is said to be protected, apparently by his redemptive sacrifice. On the other hand, Finduilas' and Morwen's graves are also protected, and they mostly just moped.
• Numenor's ships lost their protection after they began their slide into the Dark, but I always thought that was a decision of the Powers, not a spell breaking in their despite.
• Beren and Carcharoth both breached the Girdle itself - Beren because his Doom was stronger than Melian's power, and Carcharoth because of the Silmaril.

I don't feel like a simple "evil spell" explanation quite fits the setting of Middle-earth, but what does fit is the idea that the Girdle was opened specifically to Thingol's Doom. If Morgoth had launched an attack at the same time as the Dwarves, he would still have been kept out; but under the pressure of all those evil spells, Thingol had chosen his Doom. He didn't know that was what he was doing, but he chose to follow greed rather than honour. When the consequences of that choice came for him, even a Maia couldn't stop them.

Which makes me think the most direct parallel might be the death of the Witch-King. He too was under a spell of protection, and from the text of RotK it was broken by a combination of a special weapon ("No other blade... would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter"), and a Doom which the victim was aware of and knowingly chanced himself against ("not by the hand of man will he fall", indicating that he will fall somehow).

But that does run me directly into the question of Doom ("Thingol's fate was sealed") vs narrative imperative ("after Thingol fell so badly from grace he had to get his comeuppance") vs the demands of plot ("the Girdle had to break so the Silmaril could end up with Earendil"). They're very difficult to tell apart.

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The combined effect you're talking about - Morgoth's curse + Glaurung's spell + Mim's spell + Hurin's curse (on Thingol) - certainly seems metaphysically potent. Is there precendent for a powerful force like this negating an opposing force?

• Finrod's grave is said to be protected, apparently by his redemptive sacrifice. On the other hand, Finduilas' and Morwen's graves are also protected, and they mostly just moped.
• Numenor's ships lost their protection after they began their slide into the Dark, but I always thought that was a decision of the Powers, not a spell breaking in their despite.
• Beren and Carcharoth both breached the Girdle itself - Beren because his Doom was stronger than Melian's power, and Carcharoth because of the Silmaril.

I don't feel like a simple "evil spell" explanation quite fits the setting of Middle-earth, but what does fit is the idea that the Girdle was opened specifically to Thingol's Doom. If Morgoth had launched an attack at the same time as the Dwarves, he would still have been kept out; but under the pressure of all those evil spells, Thingol had chosen his Doom. He didn't know that was what he was doing, but he chose to follow greed rather than honour. When the consequences of that choice came for him, even a Maia couldn't stop them.

Which makes me think the most direct parallel might be the death of the Witch-King. He too was under a spell of protection, and from the text of RotK it was broken by a combination of a special weapon ("No other blade... would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter"), and a Doom which the victim was aware of and knowingly chanced himself against ("not by the hand of man will he fall", indicating that he will fall somehow).

But that does run me directly into the question of Doom ("Thingol's fate was sealed") vs narrative imperative ("after Thingol fell so badly from grace he had to get his comeuppance") vs the demands of plot ("the Girdle had to break so the Silmaril could end up with Earendil"). They're very difficult to tell apart.

hS

Is Mim's spell still a thing at this late point?


But in general, I wasn't really talking about curses, whether Mim's, Glaurung's or even Morgoth's.


Hurin strikes me as a kind of harbinger of Doom at this point: as, if he knocks at your door and you let him in freely and give him food and shelter, your fate is sealed.

I don't really know why or how the mechanics of something like that would work in Tolkien's legendarium, but it has been my impression of his character (after his release from Angband) for years.