Ruin of Doriath - Final Part - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Huinesoron · 08-08-2022, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

But...ladies and gentlemen, we DO have "Concerning... 'The Hoard'"!

That is, as of last month from an auction - it was sold for c. 150,000$ from what I've heard. The auction website has actually posted images of the manuscripts, and a brave soul has already attempted to tackle the mess that is Tolkien's handwriting!

I will link both the auction website and the transcript here, and oh boy does it not disappoint!

The manuscript images: https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/...Popular-112917

The transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ISmd8laFM/edit

Oh wow! That's a really impressive find, and a fascinating resolution to the Girdle Problem. I feel like your discovery deserves a thread up in Books for more general discussion; do you want to start one, or do you mind if I do so?

hS

Arvegil145 · 08-08-2022, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Oh wow! That's a really impressive find, and a fascinating resolution to the Girdle Problem. I feel like your discovery deserves a thread up in Books for more general discussion; do you want to start one, or do you mind if I do so?

hS

Sure, make a thread if you want - I'm not really active on the forum anyway, I just remembered this project and wanted to share my find (which I stumbled upon on r/tolkienfans).

Findegil · 08-08-2022, 09:42 AM

Okay, so in view of what is found in the actual text of Concerning ... 'The Hoard', it seems we sought all the time an answer for the wrong question: The question is not, how to get rid of the Outlaws? It is rather how to get rid of the constant fighting in Menegroth?

And only Tolkiens first answer was to get rid of the Outlaws and then he changed his mind (because what he had done destroyed the gesture of Húrin) and skipt the fight between the Dwarven smiths and the Elves. And by that making the Dwarves even more respectable and Thingol even more foolish and spell-driven. It is a pity Christopher Tolkien did not know that text when he published Sill77; HoME and probably B&L.

And the next arcaine question is how the dating of Concerning ... 'The Hoard' is relative to Text X.

However that short text will bring a lot of change in this chapter and some details for others. Maybe it can wake some new intrest in this now very long resting project!

Respectfully,
Findegil

gondowe · 08-09-2022, 09:23 AM

Hello everyone. I already explained in The Books section that regarding the manuscript, I have doubts about its dating.
The doubt arises mainly from the mention of the Sons of the Valar, in 1964.

Either way, this changes the story treatment of The Ruin of Doriath. Mainly regarding the outlaws and Thingol's death.
But we continue, or at least I continue, with the doubt of who the Nauglamir was made for, Thingol or Finrod. We continue with the question of text X (or the conversation with his father X). That could have been written or made after 1964.
My initial proposal would be to adopt the plot line of C..TH, adapting the BoLT text, but keeping the authorship of the Nauglamir for Finrod. I would, without any other evidence, to give CT the credibility it deserves.
What is your opinion?

Greetings

Findegil · 08-10-2022, 12:43 AM

We have seen JRR Tolkien before using phrases like 'the Sons of the Valar' long after he had abonded them in other texts. But anyway, what would that change in our weighing of the text? It is still by fare the latest text we have, beside some snipets here and there, like Text X.

Respectfully
Findegil

gondowe · 08-10-2022, 01:22 AM

Yes. Of course that doesn't matter at all for our purposes. It was just a question to consider.
In any case, what do you think of my proposition, keeping the Nauglamír for Finrod, having no other evidence than the credibility of CT, and assuming that text X is after 1964, which may well be possible.
Greetings

Findegil · 08-11-2022, 03:33 AM

In the books forum I did agree rather to the concept that Text X is the logical 'end point' of cutting out the outlaws and their fight in Menegroth and that most likly, when JRR Tolkien, while writing Wanderings of Húrin discovered, that he needed the Outlaws, the concept of cutting out the fight of the dwarfish simths makes the pre-history of the Nauglamir unneseccary.

But I am hesitating to rule out the possibility that the Nauglamir made for Finrod had some completly diffrent background and should therefore be combined with the storyline of Concerning ... 'The Hoard'.
So much that my first attemp at an edited text version was exactly for that combination. But I don't think I will push that farther. To skip Text X as either earlier then Concerning ... 'The Hoard' or a proposed change unworkable for us, is most proberbly the 'cannonically' saver way.

It would be very good to have opinnions of some other members on that matter. I am very much a 'combiner' and that might not be the best approach in this complex.

On another point: Why do you think Concerning ... 'The Hoard' does change the storyline in regard to the death of Thingol? Okay, I see that Doriath is now open to an attack while Thingol is alive, so the timing might be different. And I agree that Concerning ... 'The Hoard' suggest that Thingol is killed after Menegroth was taken. But I do not see that it is necessarily within Menegroth that Thingol is killed. Concerning ... 'The Hoard' is equally to all other sources later then TN just a very short summary. Does any of these text ruleout the Hunt as a feature of the detailed story? I don't think so. And if we compair TN and Concerning ... 'The Hoard' then in both we have the sequence of
- dwarf-host enters Doriath
- Menegroth is taken
- Thingol is killed

Even if Concerning ... 'The Hoard' would strongly suggest that Thingol died within Menegroth (which it does not, in my oppinion), since we have nothing beside that over short statement, I would consider this a change unworkable for us.

Respectfully
Findegil

08-08-2022, 09:42 AM	#3
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Okay, so in view of what is found in the actual text of Concerning ... 'The Hoard', it seems we sought all the time an answer for the wrong question: The question is not, how to get rid of the Outlaws? It is rather how to get rid of the constant fighting in Menegroth? And only Tolkiens first answer was to get rid of the Outlaws and then he changed his mind (because what he had done destroyed the gesture of Húrin) and skipt the fight between the Dwarven smiths and the Elves. And by that making the Dwarves even more respectable and Thingol even more foolish and spell-driven. It is a pity Christopher Tolkien did not know that text when he published Sill77; HoME and probably B&L. And the next arcaine question is how the dating of Concerning ... 'The Hoard' is relative to Text X. However that short text will bring a lot of change in this chapter and some details for others. Maybe it can wake some new intrest in this now very long resting project! Respectfully, Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 08-08-2022 at 10:06 AM.

08-09-2022, 09:23 AM	#4
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 248	Hello everyone. I already explained in The Books section that regarding the manuscript, I have doubts about its dating. The doubt arises mainly from the mention of the Sons of the Valar, in 1964. Either way, this changes the story treatment of The Ruin of Doriath. Mainly regarding the outlaws and Thingol's death. But we continue, or at least I continue, with the doubt of who the Nauglamir was made for, Thingol or Finrod. We continue with the question of text X (or the conversation with his father X). That could have been written or made after 1964. My initial proposal would be to adopt the plot line of C..TH, adapting the BoLT text, but keeping the authorship of the Nauglamir for Finrod. I would, without any other evidence, to give CT the credibility it deserves. What is your opinion? Greetings

08-10-2022, 12:43 AM	#5
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	We have seen JRR Tolkien before using phrases like 'the Sons of the Valar' long after he had abonded them in other texts. But anyway, what would that change in our weighing of the text? It is still by fare the latest text we have, beside some snipets here and there, like Text X. Respectfully Findegil

08-10-2022, 01:22 AM	#6
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 248	Yes. Of course that doesn't matter at all for our purposes. It was just a question to consider. In any case, what do you think of my proposition, keeping the Nauglamír for Finrod, having no other evidence than the credibility of CT, and assuming that text X is after 1964, which may well be possible. Greetings

08-11-2022, 03:33 AM	#7
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	In the books forum I did agree rather to the concept that Text X is the logical 'end point' of cutting out the outlaws and their fight in Menegroth and that most likly, when JRR Tolkien, while writing Wanderings of Húrin discovered, that he needed the Outlaws, the concept of cutting out the fight of the dwarfish simths makes the pre-history of the Nauglamir unneseccary. But I am hesitating to rule out the possibility that the Nauglamir made for Finrod had some completly diffrent background and should therefore be combined with the storyline of Concerning ... 'The Hoard'. So much that my first attemp at an edited text version was exactly for that combination. But I don't think I will push that farther. To skip Text X as either earlier then Concerning ... 'The Hoard' or a proposed change unworkable for us, is most proberbly the 'cannonically' saver way. It would be very good to have opinnions of some other members on that matter. I am very much a 'combiner' and that might not be the best approach in this complex. On another point: Why do you think Concerning ... 'The Hoard' does change the storyline in regard to the death of Thingol? Okay, I see that Doriath is now open to an attack while Thingol is alive, so the timing might be different. And I agree that Concerning ... 'The Hoard' suggest that Thingol is killed after Menegroth was taken. But I do not see that it is necessarily within Menegroth that Thingol is killed. Concerning ... 'The Hoard' is equally to all other sources later then TN just a very short summary. Does any of these text ruleout the Hunt as a feature of the detailed story? I don't think so. And if we compair TN and Concerning ... 'The Hoard' then in both we have the sequence of - dwarf-host enters Doriath - Menegroth is taken - Thingol is killed Even if Concerning ... 'The Hoard' would strongly suggest that Thingol died within Menegroth (which it does not, in my oppinion), since we have nothing beside that over short statement, I would consider this a change unworkable for us. Respectfully Findegil