Riddles in the Downs

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, now I am confused. That type of comment is usually made when it's something I am super-infested in, but you said it's not Feanor and company and you also said it's not Turin & company, and the lines don't sound like they are describing Maeglin and company either.

No, no. Just that your guess for the burst is a perfect close-but-no-cigar, and you will kick yourself when you know the answer. Also, I hope you are not infested in Feanors and Turins.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No, no. Just that your guess for the burst is a perfect close-but-no-cigar, and you will kick yourself when you know the answer. Also, I hope you are not infested in Feanors and Turins.

Well, actually, I'd love to be infested by Feanors and Turins.

[Urwen]

Oh, and I misread the name. It's not Dagor Aglareb, but Dagor Bragollach.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Oh, and I misread the name. It's not Dagor Aglareb, but Dagor Bragollach.

Yes. Aglareb also had a bit of a firework display IIRC, but Bragollach was the more impressive one.

[Urwen]

Okay, I now think I can explain the riddle. Or at least some parts of it.



The oldest one, the nameless one,
Did not know warmth of shining sun.
But in the darkness shone the stars,
And in their light, from countries far
The Second came in second's turn -
But, in the end, though day was won,
Who twice had torched, third time must burn. - Feanor

But better known in tale of years
The younger sisters - one for tears,
And one for joy, resounding joy
Which yet failed darkness to destroy;
But peace was guarded well, until
Twixt triumph great and ruin great -
But stopping short of western hills -
A burst reversed the tides of fate,
Breaking resistance, kindling dread, - Dagor Bragollach
Incinerating every shred
Of estel in the lord now dead
Whose line was estel to beget. - Fingolfin

I'm not the least, but I'm the last.
The closing rage of hardships past,
Of foes and heroes both long gone.
You cannot count us on one hand -
Though brief our line, 'tis yet too long,
And we destroyed our motherland. - Orcs, who destroyed Beleriand
I am the end. I am the start.
I split the thread of time apart.

[Galadriel55]

Well, Feanor amd Fingolfin you had before, now you have Dagor Bragollach, but the main question of who is I and who are "we" (i.e. the group) remain in shadow. They are not Orcs.

[Huinesoron]

It looks to me like the group can be placed on the timeline of the First Age:

"The oldest one, the nameless one"

"The [Noldor] came in second's turn"

Then Feanor dies.

"younger sister... one for tears" - interestingly, there's nothing to say where this sister falls in the timeline.

"And one for joy, resounding joy"

Then "peace was guarded well".

Then the Dagor Bragollach takes up most of the second stanza, with Fingolfin's death.

"I'm not the least, but I'm the last"

Then "we destroyed our motherland", which means the motherland (Beleriand?) must have existed until the last's time.

That's five clearly marked members of the group - but the poem also says "You cannot count us on one hand".

hS