Finduilas and the Doom of Turin

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

In the end, though, I suspect that the particular interpretation one chooses is less important than the fact that the work can sustain either.

I think this is probably the truest assessment of the chicken or the egg - erm, curse or character question, and I would not be surprised if the ambiguity is deliberate. Nothing hurts like hope, so the ambiguity just adds texture to the tragedy.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Turin's tale is a tragedy. He is a great hero caught up in events beyond his control and beyond his depth. He is cursed. Notwithstanding his curse, he manages to do great things, even though much of what he does seems to turn ill. A great part of the story is his relationship with Glaurung and the slaying of the worm. I do not think that Tolkien would suggest that this might not occur, that Turin's "doom" would not find him if he did or refrained from doing anything. Gwindor's prophecy is a late addition to Turin's tale. I do not think that it does anything for the story; the tale is equally tragic if Turin ignores Gwindor's dying wish that he rescue Finduilas without linking the rescue to an undoing of his curse or doom. To the contrary, to suggest that a simple "good deed" could contravene Morgoth's curse is a bit too blithe a solution. And what of the fact that even Turin's attempts to do good are turned awry by the curse? The idea that rescuing Finduilas would avert Turin's doom simply does not fit.

This was more or less my train of thought on reading the question. I have to admit, I haven't really considered it - but I agree with you that Gwindor's prophecy, if it is such, does not fit in at all. There is nothing inherent in Finduilas or their relationship that could counteract the patterns of the Curse, regardless of the mechanism by which
it is brought about. There is no reason why doing a generic good or selfless deed would stop this train in its tracks either - in fact, even Turin's good deeds come to bite him in the backside (eg sparing Mim). But, in the interest of not coming to the rather unsatisfying conclusion that this is a piece of the story that was in the process of modification and no longer belongs in the text, let me try to find some argument to reconcile it. Perhaps Finduilas's presence might have shielded Turin from his Curse for a time, similar to Beleg. It would not matter how that would be accomplished - by physically removing Turin from Morgoth's sphere of influence, by inspiring to be a better person in her presence, by radiating a healing aura, or what have you. I still do not think it would last - just like Beleg did not. But perhaps it would have given him another "light" period in his life, and perhaps the final blow would not have come quite as hard. But, like has been said many times before, who knows. And I am not trying to cop out of an answer - I truly think that any speculation on what would have happened in this particular story is just absolutely groundless fluff, you can say whatever you want and there will be a way to rationalize it, and it will be no more true than something completely different.

[Huinesoron]

A suggestion that doesn't seem to have been made is that "saving Finduilas will save you from your doom" could have been on purely practical considerations. davem quoted this passage:

Yet he began to fear that Túrin would grow to such a power that the curse that he had laid upon him would become void, and he would escape the doom that had been designed for him, or else that he might retreat to Doriath and be lost to his sight again.

There's two scenarios in which Turin can save Finduilas. Either he somehow manages to drive back Glaurung's army long enough to evacuate Nargothrond (this seems unlikely), or he doesn't intervene, watches Finduilas being dragged away, but then (either by fighting off the dragon-spell or by never getting under it in the first place) goes after her and rescues her and the others. In either situation, he has a group of traumatised Nargothrond civilians, and an army of Orcs and an angry dragon on his tail.

What does he do next? He's not going to take them to Amon Rudh. He's not going to drag them over the mountains to Dor-lomin. He doesn't know of any safe settlements on the south coast (I'm not sure there is one at this time). He's certainly not going to turn them into soldiers in five minutes flat. I submit that he has only one viable option here: take the refugees of Nargothrond to Doriath.

Where Morgoth's curse can't get to him. Where he meets his mother and sister. Where he stays.

This scenario doesn't end well for Hurin, but his family presumably think him dead anyway. There is a distinct possibility that it winds up with the refugees of Gondolin also fleeing to an intact Doriath, and meeting the half-elven child of Turin Turambar there; the Valar alone know how that would have shaken out.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

take the refugees of Nargothrond to Doriath.

...where the king loves Noldor so very much.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

...where the king loves Noldor so very much.

Don't think that would really bother Turin much. These are also Finrod's Noldor - the one he actually liked - and it's *possible* Galadriel is on hand to take charge of them.

I think the books actually specify that (fewer) refugees of Nargothrond are the ones who brought the message to Doriath that the city had fallen, sparking the whole incident with Morwen and Nienor running off to meet Glaurung. So we know Thingol would at least let them in, which is all we need to get Turin back with his family.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion

Now new tidings came to Doriath concerning Nargothrond, for some that had escaped from the defeat and the sack, and had survived the Fell Winter in the wild, came at last to Thingol seeking refuge; and the march-wardens brought them to the King.

In this scenario they arrive significantly earlier, because they have Turin to lead them, and again - where else would he take a bunch of civilian refugees?

hS