"The Rings of Power" Vanity Fair article

[Boromir88]

I'd also just like to point out the criticism of depicting a young Galadriel being an armored up fighter smells of sexism when the same criticism isn't made that depicts Elrond as a fighter.

While it's true Elrond is mentioned a few times being in a position of command, leading an army, or being second-in-command to Gil-galad's forces in the Last Alliance, there is actually no description of him fighting, as in performing the action of "fighting." Galadriel is specifically mentioned to having "fought fiercely against Feanor" in his attack on Alqualonde.

Elrond is in a position of commanding an army (but being a leader of an army in battle doesn't necessarily mean you physically fought in that battle), so I think it's a fair assumption to make that he would have fought, or at least be armored and wielding a weapon to fight if he had to. However, those are just assumptions we make, there's no actual text describing Elrond physically fought anyone in the Last Alliance and Siege of Barad-dur. He says that him and Cirdan stood with Gil-galad when Gil-galad wrestled Sauron, but that's the only action described. Actually something that's associated to Elrond more is he's mentioned as being a skilled healer, arguably the best healer, so one could easily assume he was at the battle in the capacity of being a medic/healer (and 2nd in command). That would be another assumption, but my point being there's more textual evidence to have a warrior, armored up Galadriel than there is of Elrond...yet I don't ever hear anyone griping about Elrond's armored up depiction in PJ's films.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'd also just like to point out the criticism of depicting a young Galadriel being an armored up fighter smells of sexism when the same criticism isn't made that depicts Elrond as a fighter.

Um, sorry, but no. What you are saying is that the reason I am a number of others have taken badly to the idea of Valkirie-Galadriel is because she is a woman, and had Elrond been in the same spot, we would not be equally as disgusted with the idea. Sorry, but I think that misses the point entirely.

The issue is not that Galadriel is a woman who is swinging a sword; the issue is that the story we can piece together is Galadriel throwing a hissy tantrum, and the sword and armour just happen to be part of the package. She is absolutely a woman who can wear armour and wield weapons - if there is a woman who can do that, it is her. She wasn't named Nerwen for nothing. But, at the same time, she wasn't named Nerwen for her physical prowess alone; the name reflects more than her tendency to masculine hobbies, but a more masculine frame of mind. Hard. Stubborn. Ambitious. Knows her mind. Has it her way. Stern. Perhaps quick to anger in her younger days. Cunning. Proud. You want to start not with the already calmed and grieved Second-Age Galadriel but the more fiery First Age Nerwen - fine, start with Nerwen. But she is not Nerwen because she can swing a sword. She is Nerwen deep inside her soul, a leader, a player of the big game, a strong-minded and strong-willed person, more full of strength than subtlety, but a strength of will as much as of body. She doesn't need a sword to be Nerwen, she just is; she would still be Nerwen if she never rode a horse or held a weapon. Does Nerwen throw a hissy-fit and go on some lonely revenge-quest against non-existent enemies? Especially a Nerwen who has lived through the Wars of Beleriand? Sorry, that's not Nerwen, that is not even Eowyn, that is... I don't know what. A glorified tomboy? But let's not condemn criticism of the butchering of her character to sexism. It's being unfair first and foremost to Galadriel herself. If anything, it's more sexist to reduce a complex female character to an empty suit of armour and claim that this somehow enhances her.

As for Elrond - have we actually seen him fighting in any of the promo materials? Yes, I expect him to be fighting at some point or other, and I expect to see him standing by Gil-Galad. I don't recall seeing any ridiculous Elrond fighting scenes as yet though, so not sure what you are expecting the audience to criticize. I am happy to criticize the ridiculous Silvan Elf stunt-fighting style - but where has Elrond appeared fighting? Or did I block out a whole scene from my memory? If you just mean that he stood wearing armour in Gil-Galad's forces in the LOTR films - I thought that was actually pretty close to how he comes across in the books, and there's no reason to assume someone would not don armour when expecting to be in the midst of a battle. I just thought it was silly that he didn't have a helmet, but I suppose you need your character to be identifiable by the audience. And he is Gil-Galad's herald, and stood beside him in the Last Alliance. It is less natural to argue against his participation than to argue for it. Had he been portrayed as a bloodthirsty butcher - that would be a different story. A reluctant but competent fighter, and a loyal and reliable lieutenant, and a level-headed leader of his men - that is not at all out of keeping with his character. I don't think we see that in the LOTR movies, but as we don't see the contrary either, so why complain there. I think that the argument you've made is pretty weak - or perhaps I have misunderstood it, and if so, my apologies.

Elrond's character is also being butchered, but in his case it's with the role of a "wily politician". I think we've complained enough about that to not have to rehash why it makes me cringe. Can we say that both characters seem to be utterly misunderstood so far - but that we are only given the very beginning of their tales, so there is still a sliver of hope that after the first couple of episodes things will get less ridiculous? And, now that you've brought up Elrond as a mirror for Galadriel (), I realize that it would not be half as cringeworthy to portray Galadriel as a wily politician in the Second Age and early Third Age. She is the ambitious one looking out for her interests and her kingdom's interests, who seeks independence and builds alliances, who initiates the Council of the Wise and is involved with wheels turning in the background of many of the great events of those Ages.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Um, sorry, but no. What you are saying is that the reason I am a number of others have taken badly to the idea of Valkirie-Galadriel is because she is a woman, and had Elrond been in the same spot, we would not be equally as disgusted with the idea. Sorry, but I think that misses the point entirely.

I should have been more clear that my 2nd post comparing Elrond and Galadriel was not directed towards anyone or anything that's been said on this thread, or on the 'Downs. I did something that I never do and went to read youtube comments. Perhaps Galadriel in the show throws a hissy fit (I'm not sure I've seen enough to confirm she does)...but if you want to talk about tantrums? Wow, you don't have to look far to find people losing their minds about Cate Blanchett not being Galadriel, and because of "wokeness" they won't get to see Cate Blanchett in an elegant white gown. Or "Tolkien would be rolling in his grave if he knew Galadriel had a sword." My apologies as well for not being clear there's so much misogyny and sexism in the "fandom" at the moment. This place is a breath of fresh air, even though I still disagree and am glad they're going to show a different Galadriel.

Now if they make her into a Tauriel "This is MY fight" Mary Sue character, then sure the criticisms are going to be more valid. At the moment, they fall flat, when you consider people don't raise the same gripes about depicting Elrond as a fighter.

(Yes I'm doubling down)

In The Hobbit films, Elrond is off hunting orc parties on his borders and then he's armored in Dol Guldur to rescue Gandalf. The latter scene, makes reasonable sense. However, there is whole LOTR and Hobbit movie lore about Arwen's sword named "Hadhafang." It was Elrond's sword, and how great Elrond was wielding "Hadhafang." All made up by Jackson and the team. I don't know about the Amazon series, but the movies are clearly depicting Elrond as a fighter.

And my point here is there is more evidence that would suggest Galadriel is more capable, and has more of a disposition towards fighting (both physically and a greater will) than Elrond. Elrond is most commonly associated with healing, in fact being a great healer.

As I said, Elrond being someone who has commanded armies, and was at the Last Alliance it is a fair assumption to make that he would have actually fought in the battle. But Elrond, unlike Galadriel, is never directly given the action of "fighting" against anyone, or "killing" anyone. It's a reasonable assumption, but that would still be an assumption. Given that he was most known for being a great healer, I think it would be an equally fair assumption that he was at the battle to be serve in the capacity of an advisor (Gil-galad's 2nd in command) and healer. My point is though, we all make an assumption that Elrond would have fought in battles, because he's lead armies a few times. Then we would have to make that same assumption about Galadriel, because she it is directly quoted that she "fought against Feanor" in his attack on Alqualonde.

If you want to consider when Tolkien got philosophical in "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar," then there would even be evidence to suggest Elrond would not want to fight, and would not want to kill anyone, even in battle. Because there Tolkien remarks that a person's healing powers would diminish with the more people they killed. Granted it's not unlike Tolkien to contradict himself when he was writing more philosophically, but to have a problem with Galadriel being depicted as a warrior, and not have it about Elrond, is not a fair criticism. I shouldn't have gone to the extreme of saying it smells of sexism (not with what's been posted on this site) but hop onto youtube and see the hissy fits people who have no idea what they're talking about. I wonder if those trolls ever read Tolkien, because they make the Amazon show runners look like Tolkien scholars.

[mhagain]

The single strongest argument against a wise 2nd Age Galadriel is how she's handled at the end of the 1st Age. That's a story that was developed in multiple variants, but whether she rejects the pardon of the Valar, whether the Valar keep her under the Ban (and IIRC one version where she would have stayed anyway), whichever way you slice it this is still a character who has a long way to go, and would have continued to be a disruptive presence in the Blessed Realm.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by mhagain

The single strongest argument against a wise 2nd Age Galadriel is how she's handled at the end of the 1st Age. That's a story that was developed in multiple variants, but whether she rejects the pardon of the Valar, whether the Valar keep her under the Ban (and IIRC one version where she would have stayed anyway), whichever way you slice it this is still a character who has a long way to go, and would have continued to be a disruptive presence in the Blessed Realm.

Aye. The Second Age Galadriel is not yet wise, or as wise as can be. She is still ambitious, and proud, and headstrong. But she is not brash. I hate that word so much. It might just barely apply to her in the beginning of the First Age, but it's a stretch to say that she was that even with her end of the First Age decisions. She might not have reached her full wisdom, but she is not some impertinent tomboy; at the very least her temper is a little softened with patience and the knowledge of loss. Her descriptions in the show keep putting me in mind of Obara Sand from GOT and various action-movie heroines and that is just not who she is. Pre-Helcaraxe Galadriel might have ridden off on a horse after an argument to chase some bad guys around and pout. End of First Age Galadriel acts on a bigger scale. This is a woman who has kingdoms on her mind. She thinks in bigger goals. Chasing some scattered enemies in a one-[obsessed]-man-mission because she has no bigger ambition (?) or nothing better to do (?) is petty and small and just not the scale to which the end-of-FA Galadriel would apply herself with such zeal. So do I conclude that the show Galadriel really has nothing more to her than action figure sword waving? I am trying very hard to give it the benefit of the doubt, but purely based on the info they have released to date, I am very not happy.

I am not sure why Galadriel irks me more than the other irksome things in the promo material. It might be that I've grown more attached to her after becoming her namesake. I suspect it is a case of the show just disregarding the essence of the world they are portraying, as William has been saying, and all the specific examples of misinterpretation are just the manifestations of the underlying problem. But some things you are more willing to forgive, whereas others just hit a little too close to what is dear and should not be touched. Maybe this is one of mine.