"The Rings of Power" Vanity Fair article

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The only remaining question is whether this is better compared with the Ciurea train wreck of 1917 (600-1000 dead) or the Bihar train wreck of 1981 (200+ confirmed dead, several hundred more presumed killed). The first was a collision, the second went off a cliff.

[mhagain]

The "Hobbits where none should be" thing needs to be addressed.

There is absolutely nothing in Tolkien stating there were no Hobbits in the Second Age.

Quite the opposite, the Of Dwarves and Men essay even explicitly references primitive Hobbit tribes in "unrecorded ages".

I'd expected better from posters on this forum. Sigh.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mhagain

The "Hobbits where none should be" thing needs to be addressed.

There is absolutely nothing in Tolkien stating there were no Hobbits in the Second Age.

Quite the opposite, the Of Dwarves and Men essay even explicitly references primitive Hobbit tribes in "unrecorded ages".

I'd expected better from posters on this forum. Sigh.

There were no Hobbit ancestors on the west side of the Misty Mountains during the 2nd Age. Did they exist? Certainly. But far east of anything that occurs in the Second Age in The Silmarillion.

According to the Tale of Years:

TA 1050: The Periannath are first mentioned in records with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador.

1050 of the Third Age. That's almost 3300 years after Sauron seduces the Elves into making the Rings. There's a reason that Tolkien in his letters states anyone looking for Hobbits in the material that makes up The Silmarillion would be disappointed. The Hobbits weren't even mentioned until they entered Eriador over three millenia after the ancient era when the story takes place.

They didn't even reach Bree until TA 1300. The second entry in the Tale of Years:

The Periannath migrate westward; many settle at Bree.

I would suggest you read the books before making statements about canon. It might help you in discussions here.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

There were no Hobbit ancestors on the west side of the Misty Mountains during the 2nd Age. Did they exist? Certainly. But far east of anything that occurs in the Second Age in The Silmarillion.

... And the reason why you think the Hobbits depicted in this show will be west of the Misty Mountains is?

Go on, I'm waiting.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I would suggest you read the books before making statements about canon. It might help you in discussions here.

Given that I cited Of Dwarves and Men I might have thought that you'd engage reasonably here, but I guess that was expecting too much.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mhagain

... And the reason why you think the Hobbits depicted in this show will be west of the Misty Mountains is?

Go on, I'm waiting.

Given that I cited Of Dwarves and Men I might have thought that you'd engage reasonably here, but I guess that was expecting too much.

When you "Sigh" as if I didn't have a valid point or I'm clueless, courtesy goes out the window. The point of throwing in Hobbits where they don't belong is another bit of fan-fiction nonsense being foisted on this project. Saying "Hobbits existed" during the 2nd Age, does not in any way validate their appearance where they don't belong.

When I said there were no Hobbits west of the Misty Mountains (you know, where almost the entirety of the action in the early Second Age occurs), perhaps I should be more specific. 3300 years before the Hobbits are recorded actually entering Eriador, they had not even gotten to the Vales of Anduin. They are most likely east even of Greenwood the Great. Nowhere in the theater of action, no real reason for them to be appearing.

The Dunedain don't note their appearance for 3300 years, the Elves are unaware of their existence 3300 years before they entered Eriador, and Treebeard doesn't even include them in his list of creatures -- even though he and the Ents searched for years for the Entwives east of the Misty Mountains.

Tolkien mentions the Hobbits as follows:

In the middle of this Age [3rd Age] the Hobbits appear. Their origin is unknown (even to themselves) for they escaped the notice of the great, or the civilised peoples with records, and kept none themselves, save vague oral traditions, until they had migrated from the borders of Mirkwood, fleeing from the Shadow, and wandered westward, coming into contact with the last remnants of the Kingdom of Arnor.

Letter No. 131, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

So plopping Hobbits whole and hardy and jolly and plump into a war of Elves, Numenoreans and Sauron is daft.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

3300 years before the Hobbits are recorded actually entering Eriador, they had not even gotten to the Vales of Anduin. They are most likely east even of Greenwood the Great. Nowhere in the theater of action, no real reason for them to be appearing.

I don’t know how clear it was in the article, but I believe the Silvan elf and the Mortal healer are both in the vaguely-defined "Southland" (maybe future Gondor/Rohan?). So there are at least two stars east of the Misty Mountains; the action isn't all Eriador.

I'm guessing the antler-carrying nomads are meant to be fairly eastward too - that would tie in with the Hobbit movies giving Thranduil a moose for no apparent reason - and the trailer seems to imply the Harfeet are in their general area.

(Plus, of course, individual Hobbits could go where their culture didn't - and not enter the records, because they're very good at going unseen...)

hS

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm guessing the antler-carrying nomads are meant to be fairly eastward too - that would tie in with the Hobbit movies giving Thranduil a moose for no apparent reason - and the trailer seems to imply the Harfeet are in their general area.

Incidentally, any idea what are they? (I assume that's the question the creators want the audience to wonder about. If they were random Lossadan - as was my first thought - who are going to host Gil-Galad for one evening because he happens to be passing through their territory, they wouldn't deserve such spotlight.)

I wondered whether they are supposed to be just some generic "Northmen", as in, denizens of (some part of) Middle-Earth as opposed to the Númenoreans. It also pretty much makes sense that they would be some sort of around-the-Wilderland-area-type-inhabitants who could also get a Nazgul or two recruited from among themselves (or are they Men of the White Mountains? FUTURE GREEN ARMY OF FLUBBER? Incidentally I had completely forgotten that this plot exists and if the series is not going to address it I am going to eat my hat!).

Speaking of the trailer: I was surprised how close the aesthetics (or at least those we have seen) are to the PJ take on it. What looks like Lindon (?) is effectively copypaste of the last scene of LotR with more architecture (which would make sense). That peculiar elf in golden armour who looks like Jamie Lannister fighting Orcs (flashback of Galadriel's brother??? Hope not) looks horribly Haldirish.

The selection of scenes for the trailer is obviously to evoke the familiar movie LotR feel in the target audience, but it is closer than I thought. Which, everything else about the series aside, is kind of a pity because I had hoped that this might bring some slightly fresher, new aesthetic (but then again not the D&D aesthetic that it seemed to me on first sight, so this is marginally better than that. Same old, but better than the D&D handbook style).

Originally Posted by Morthoron

So plopping Hobbits whole and hardy and jolly and plump into a war of Elves, Numenoreans and Sauron is daft.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

(Plus, of course, individual Hobbits could go where their culture didn't - and not enter the records, because they're very good at going unseen...)

Seconding what Hui said here. One Hobbit does not a record in the books of the Wise make. If the Harfoots in question are going to be just the "Rosenkrantz&Guildenstern" and sort of observers from afar, or at most the third messengers to the second lieutenant of Mr. Hallstadstborn's fifth cavalry, then nobody is really going to be interested in recording them, are they? That's hardly "plopping Hobbits whole and hardy and jolly and plump into a war", so far from what we know it's plopping Harfoots (and possibly, like, two of them) sideways somewhere to the edge of some conflict they totally don't get. And the creators pretty much stated that the Harfoot characters are not going to play a major role in the big things (that would, indeed, be a no-no!).

But imagine if Frodo and co. had not had the Ring but just went to Minas Tirith for a road trip. Would people have noticed their presence? About as much as a travelling circus.

So I am not really very worried about the Hobbits (or Harfoot, as it were) appearing. (Yet.) Look, it could have been much worse. Compare to any LotR video game where Hobbits run amok slaughtering the Witch-King of Angmar and the other nazgul by dozens (intentional use of words).

I am doubtful about the series as much as the next guy but I'm also trying to be objective and sober in my judgment of it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by mhagain

... And the reason why you think the Hobbits depicted in this show will be west of the Misty Mountains is?

Go on, I'm waiting.



Given that I cited Of Dwarves and Men I might have thought that you'd engage reasonably here, but I guess that was expecting too much.

Actually, there is no record of Halflings anywhere until they appear in the eaves of Greenwood several centuries into the 3rd Age. There is no evidence for them in the 2nd whatsoever