New Tolkien coming!

[zionius]

Originally Posted by James the Just

One thing to keep in mind about a new moon is that it's not visible to the naked eye for about 18 hours after the astronomical event. I have a feeling Tolkien didn't realize this when considering what Sam saw. Unless Hobbits have really good eyesight.

Tolkien in his novels used the traditional definition of New Moon (still in use in Islamic & Hebrew calendars), ie. the earliest visible waxing crescent. The calendar uses the astronomic definition of New Moon, which is about 18~36 hours before the traditional "New Moon". In his timeline he confused the two definitions, so his time from new moon to full moon is 1~2 days shorter than the primary world, and full moon to new moon 1~2 days longer.

[James the Just]

Thank you.
The fact that he used "Oxford University Pocket Diary, 1941-2" is very interesting. You wouldn't have a spare copy, would you?
Is there a chance you might know what kind of maps of Europe he may have used? I'm thinking of something that the maps of Middle-earth might be based on; whether merely a subconscious influence to an outright tracing.

[zionius]

Originally Posted by James the Just

Thank you.
The fact that he used "Oxford University Pocket Diary, 1941-2" is very interesting. You wouldn't have a spare copy, would you?
Is there a chance you might know what kind of maps of Europe he may have used? I'm thinking of something that the maps of Middle-earth might be based on; whether merely a subconscious influence to an outright tracing.

No idea. The only page I know of that diary is the page shown in Maker item 87.

And today I note he might have used another source for his moon rise and fall time (because the 1941-2 diary only shows sun rise and fall time, plus moon phases). That's Marquette MSS-4/2/29/18a shown in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu Fig.189 ( https://twitter.com/zionius/status/1486565751788310530) It says "based on Moon-hours(?) May 6-15 1944". The date exactly matches Letters no.69 on May 14 1944, where he said he spent hours trying to fix moonrise/set time.
However, the moon rise and fall time recorded in that manuscript doesn't fit the actual time in May 6-15 1944 at all. So I still don't know how he got those numbers.

[James the Just]

I spent a little time trying to solve that mystery. Take a close look at the faintly printed numbers. These match the rise and set times in Oxford from May 6-15 if you subtract exactly 4 hours. Then it appears that a 12:37 time was changed to exactly midnight along with all the other numbers being adjusted by 37 minutes as well. Near the end he seems to make some mistakes in the ordering.
The difference in time between moonrise and moonset varies by latitude so you can be sure that he got his information from a source that calculated it for someplace near Oxford's. The Royal Observatory at Greenwich? London?

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/uk/...th=5&year=1944

When looking at these numbers keep in mind they might be using double summer time because of the war effort. So initially subtract 6 hours instead of 4.

[zionius]

Originally Posted by James the Just

I spent a little time trying to solve that mystery. Take a close look at the faintly printed numbers. These match the rise and set times in Oxford from May 6-15 if you subtract exactly 4 hours. Then it appears that a 12:37 time was changed to exactly midnight along with all the other numbers being adjusted by 37 minutes as well. Near the end he seems to make some mistakes in the ordering.
The difference in time between moonrise and moonset varies by latitude so you can be sure that he got his information from a source that calculated it for someplace near Oxford's. The Royal Observatory at Greenwich? London?

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/uk/...th=5&year=1944

When looking at these numbers keep in mind they might be using double summer time because of the war effort. So initially subtract 6 hours instead of 4.

Amazing discovery! I think the time difference between the pencil numbers and actual moonrise & set time is 6 hours. Such as May 11 0:07-8:40 > 6:11-2:41, May 12 1:11-9:31 > 7:11-3:37, etc. The timezone for the date on timeanddate.com seems to be UTC+1, so it's normal daylight saving time.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by zionius

No idea. The only page I know of that diary is the page shown in Maker item 87.

And today I note he might have used another source for his moon rise and fall time (because the 1941-2 diary only shows sun rise and fall time, plus moon phases). That's Marquette MSS-4/2/29/18a shown in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu Fig.189 ( https://twitter.com/zionius/status/1486565751788310530) It says "based on Moon-hours(?) May 6-15 1944". The date exactly matches Letters no.69 on May 14 1944, where he said he spent hours trying to fix moonrise/set time.
However, the moon rise and fall time recorded in that manuscript doesn't fit the actual time in May 6-15 1944 at all. So I still don't know how he got those numbers.

What's interesting about those slips (there are 3 of them) is that they represent the backs of "City of Oxford Air Raid Precautions Warden's Report Forms"- and in his letter to Christopher he mentions having sat up until 1 am on duty. So I can well imagine he was sorting out his moonrises while sitting, bored to death, in that little sandbagged bunker.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

What's interesting about those slips (there are 3 of them) is that they represent the backs of "City of Oxford Air Raid Precautions Warden's Report Forms"- and in his letter to Christopher he mentions having sat up until 1 am on duty. So I can well imagine he was sorting out his moonrises while sitting, bored to death, in that little sandbagged bunker.

It's fascinating to think that he was creating such entrancing works while doing mundane tasks.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

On the Project Muse website, where you can pre-order the e-version (available in ca. 2 weeks), and read brief excerpts:

https://muse.jhu.edu/issue/48264

Hard copies from Duke University Press/WVUP should follow in September https://wvupjournals.dukeupress.edu/tolkien-studies

It must be pointed out that it comes as part of an annual subscription which also includes the regular volume of TS, to be published in a few months. Unfortunately, that's rather more costly than I would like (60 USD).

[Faramir Jones]

Congratulations, William Cloud Hicklin, on your work finally appearing!

As Inziladun said, it's interesting that the Professor was sorting out much of the chronology while 'doing his bit' to protect Oxford during the Second World War:

https://museumofoxford.org/oxford-at...e-20th-century

https://www.oxford-royale.com/articl...ond-world-war/

[zionius]

Congratulations, amazing work! So many mysteries are finally solved.
I have a few tiny questions about the transcription part:

The time format is inconsistent, sometimes converted to American style (eg. 3:30) and sometimes not. The MS always used UK style (3.30).
What's the meaning of the multiple asterisks in S3?
p76 what's the meaning of the three left quotation marks?
p82 "17 21". It seems "17" should be crossed out.

Also, I find images of 5 pages of MSS 4/2/18 (pages 3,6,8,9,10), and compared them with your reading:
p44 On the bottom of "17 Tu." cell something was deleted, is it possible to decipher that? Is the deleted word on "18" cell really "LQ"? The MS doesn't look like so to me. (Of course the image I have is very blur so I could probably be wrong) Also, I think Tolkien later rejected moving the boxed cell on Jan 18 to Jan 17, by adding bars on the arrow. So it fixes the inconsistency discussed in footnote 53. (RC 360 also says this event is Jan 18)
p54 Is it possible to decipher the deleted words after "At 8 a.m."?
p64 Missing the full stop at the end of "They camp 20 miles or so on way".
p64 "about 35 m. p. day.[89]" p65 "89. 36 miles per day: see note 99.". It should be both "35".
p66 "and camps 30 miles on way." seems to be "and camps 30 miles east on way." in the MS, which is also the reading in RC 542.
p74 The "F. 16" cell has a deleted "LQ" unmentioned in transcription. Is that connected with the rejected LQ on p44?
p117 "with the moonrise and set times adjusted by 30 minutes". As James the Just said in this thread, I think the adjustment is 37 minutes, or approximately 40m/0.5h. But it can't be approximated to 30m.

Update: I compared the reading in Chronology (C) with the quotes in The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion (3rd ed., RC), and note several tiny differences. Without (or even with) the images it's hard to say which one is correct. Here are them (I have ignored editorial differences such as battlefield/battle field):
RC194: "Glorfindel set out from Rivendell on 9 October." C36 says it's Oct 10, according to footnote 32 Tolkien mistakenly marked it as Oct 9 and then corrected.
RC348: "They pass Gate of Argonath and come to Lake Hithoel (1.30 pm)". C52: "They pass Gate of Argonath and come to Lake Nen Hithoel (1:30 p.m)".
RC360: "Sarn Gebir". C46: "Sarngebir".
RC361: February 23 "The Orcs dismayed, but Grishnákh crosses Anduin and daringly pushes down west shore in pursuit. He believes Coy. is making for Minas Tirith." C53 says this entry was moved to February 24.
RC379: "then need long rest...they can trot ?from 6 mph for about 50 ?miles." C57: "then need a long rest...they can run [?for] 6 mph for about 50 miles."
RC410: "Wormtongue flies to Isengard". C60: "Wormtongue flees to Isengard."
RC455: "Slagmounds". C62: "Slag-mound".
RC484: "see last glimpse of sun". C66: "see last gleam of sun".
RC507: "March 5: 11.30 leaves Dolbaran". C138: "March 5 11.20 leaves Dolbaran"
RC508: "ride 69 miles". C138: "ride 68 miles".
RC508: "Pippin sees moon-rise at 9 pm and". C138: "Pippin sees moon-rise at 9 pm [illeg]".
RC508: ", 176 miles from Edoras". C138 says this sentence is rejected.
RC531: "According to Scheme, on 6 March they left Helm's Deep at about 4.00 p.m.,". C64 says it's "1 pm".
RC538: "slowly by hidden path in lower mountains." C64: "steadily by hidden paths in the mountains,".
RC542: "30 miles east on way". C66 "30 miles on way".
RC587: " reaching Calembel on Ciril.". C66: ". Reaches Calembel on Ciril.".
RC620: "Ring destroyed". C78: "Ring is destroyed".
RC639: "July [10>] 18: Éomer returns from Rohan with picked body of Riders.". C82: "July [10>18>] 17 Éomer returns from Rohan with picked body of Riders.", and footnote 130 says the change 18>17 conflicts the text and Appendix B.
RC653: "Scheme notes that the distance from Weathertop to Bree is ninety-five miles." I can't find this info in C.