Minor Works -- 3 - Smith of Wootton Major

[Guinevere]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But my main beef is with the Smith himself and I would have expected Tolkien to show perhaps a little more, hmmm, empathy, in the sense that: it is awfully unempathetic of the Smith to just go adventuring and leave the family behind.

Well, perhaps Smith wasn't absent from his family such a very long time. In Tolkien's essay on SoWM I found this interesting detail:

But it is also necessary that Faery and the World (of men), though in contact, should occupy a different time and space, or occupy them in different modes. Thus though it appears that the Smith can enter Faery more or less at will (being specially favoured), it is evident that it is a land, or world of unknown limits, containing seas and mountains; also it is plain that even during a brief visit (such as one on an evening walk) he can spend a great deal longer in Faery than his absence counts in the world; on his long journeys an absence from home of, say, a week is sufficient for exploration and experiences in Faery equivalent to months or even years

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Well, perhaps Smith wasn't absent from his family such a very long time. In Tolkien's essay on SoWM I found this interesting detail:

A very interesting idea, in which I see a connection with Lothlórien.
Mortals entering the realms of the immortal briefly partake of the difference the effect of time has upon those who aren't subject to the passing of years.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Closer than some might think, because when Tolkien wrote the Lorien chapters, no time passed in the outside world while the Company was in the Naith. When Sam was puzzled by the new moon a week after leaving, and surmised (still in FR) that "it's almost as if we didn't spend no time in there at all," it was literally true: the Fellowship crossed Silverlode on January 14 and left on - January 15.

He changed his mind about this, but not until five years later. Why he did is a mystery; I haven't found any note, scrap or jotting which gives a clue as to his reasons.

It's interesting though that Tolkien seems to have inverted the traditional "time is different in Faerie" trope. Much more usual is that found in everything from Thomas the Rhymer to The King of Elfland's Daughter to Tolkien's own The Sea-Bell: a few days inside equals decades outside, and the poor wanderer emerges to find all his loved ones long in their graves. Even Washington Irving tapped into this- although he has Rip van Winkle sleeping for 20 years rather than feasting in Elfland, it happened because Rip had partied with fay-creatures and passed out for 20 years as a result of drinking their booze.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Closer than some might think, because when Tolkien wrote the Lorien chapters, no time passed in the outside world while the Company was in the Naith. When Sam was puzzled by the new moon a week after leaving, and surmised (still in FR) that "it's almost as if we didn't spend no time in there at all," it was literally true: the Fellowship crossed Silverlode on January 14 and left on - January 15.

He changed his mind about this, but not until five years later. Why he did is a mystery; I haven't found any note, scrap or jotting which gives a clue as to his reasons.

It's interesting though that Tolkien seems to have inverted the traditional "time is different in Faerie" trope. Much more usual is that found in everything from Thomas the Rhymer to The King of Elfland's Daughter to Tolkien's own The Sea-Bell: a few days inside equals decades outside, and the poor wanderer emerges to find all his loved ones long in their graves. Even Washington Irving tapped into this- although he has Rip van Winkle sleeping for 20 years rather than feasting in Elfland, it happened because Rip had partied with fay-creatures and passed out for 20 years as a result of drinking their booze.

The same can be said of the Gaelic tale Oisin in Tir na nÓg, when Oisín returns from the Land of the Young after 300 years and has a famous debate with St. Patrick, and Oisín, who becomes ancient and dying once he steps on mortal land, stubbornly refuses to be converted to Catholicism, much to the dismay of Patrick.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The same can be said of the Gaelic tale Oisin in Tir na nÓg, when Oisín returns from the Land of the Young after 300 years and has a famous debate with St. Patrick, and Oisín, who becomes ancient and dying once he steps on mortal land, stubbornly refuses to be converted to Catholicism, much to the dismay of Patrick.

One can also see a trace of it in Sir Orfeo. Now, in the Middle English poem time seems to run normally in the Elfking's realm, but Orfeo has spent 10 years wandering the wilderness trying to get there, so that the denouement still has the "nobody recognizes the old man after all these years" vibe, and I have a notion that the Breton tale which underlay it was straight-up "ten-years-passed-in-the-length-of-time-it-took-to-bail-out-his-wife."

[Guinevere]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's interesting though that Tolkien seems to have inverted the traditional "time is different in Faerie" trope. Much more usual is that found in everything from Thomas the Rhymer to The King of Elfland's Daughter to Tolkien's own The Sea-Bell: a few days inside equals decades outside, and the poor wanderer emerges to find all his loved ones long in their graves.

In the same essay by Tolkien on SoWM from which I have quoted before, Tolkien continues:

In many Fairy Tales use is made of the idea that time passes quickly in Faery, so that a man who finds his way there may come out after what seems a brief episode to find that years, even centuries have passed. Except as a mere device to bring a man out of the past into contact with a (to him) future time - that is in a tale of which this is the real point, and Faery as such is not seriously considered - I have always felt this to be a mistake: a mistake in credibility, if Faery of any kind is taken seriously. It is true that the seeming time in Faery being immensely longer than it is felt to be is usually told of mortals that intrude into Faery. It is also true that in some actual experiences the time they take may seem short, and be found to be much longer when contact is made with ordinary affairs again.This occurs especially after absoption (mainly of intense interest and also usually pleasure) in some things as reading, seeing plays, revelry or meetings with friends. I have often said that this idea must have originated in inns: for nowhere does time "fly" so fast compared with daily experience as when sitting and drinking and conversing with dear friends in an inn. I am sure there is some truth in this. But there are other experiences. Notably that of dreams, in which a long (or full) experience may be found to have occupied a short time in the extramental world. "Narrative" is perhaps the only common measure. What takes a long time to relate adequately is long. (I mean: relate, if one wishes to, or has to, relate it. A diarist who enters against one day "nothing to relate " probably means nothing that interests me, or nothing of the kind that I usually record for future reference.) "O minutes great as years!" Dream is perhaps a better analogy for the purpose. But also this must be considered: the Faery of this tale is a particular one. If one accepts it, while "within" the tale, then clearly the Rulers of Faery - who are presented as interested in Men (not necessarily primarily) and beneficently - must be able to arrange that the experiences in Faery of favoured human persons may be enjoyed without dislocation of their normal human life. The time of their Faery must be different, even though it may be at points contiguous. For them human time is or may be also longer than that of Faery. The King dwells in Wootton for 58 years.

btw, in the Chronicles of Narnia, the passage of time in the different worlds is also different. Overall, time in Narnia goes by much faster. When the children return from there, only a few moments have passed in their own world.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What a great quote! Is that from the Flieger annotated Smith? I should have bought it years ago; I could have used that quote in my paper.