4 Of the coming of the Elves

[Aiwendil]

Thank you for explaining your reasoning. I certainly agree that, if possible, it would be nice to include as much of this elaboration of the characters of Manwe and Melkor as possible. I'm just not sure how much is possible.

It seems to me, though, that the more crucial point here is not so much Melkor's deceptive surrender at the climax of the battle as it is Manwe's inclination toward lenience and forgiveness. What if we were to keep the AAm/LQ narrative for the battle, with Melkor defeated and chained, but also keep the LT council where the Valar debate what to do with him? Then we would still have the strong characterization of Manwe as the seeker of reconciliation, but without having to rely on a sentence from MT to narrate a critical part of the story. We might even find it possible to touch up the LT council scene with bits from MT to suggest Melkor's feigned repentance at this point, and highlight Manwe's attempt at compromise. Thus, while rejecting the part of the MT story that contradicts AAm/LQ as an unimplementable projected change, we could use it to enrich the depiction of character and motive inherent in the earlier story. This would, in my opinion, do far less damage to Tolkien's texts than changing the whole story of the battle by splicing in sentences from MT.

I'd also note that I don't see the chaining of Melkor here as precluding the moment of realization by him and Manwe about his dispersal of power, nor the moment of near repentance. The only difference is that in this case, despite the realization, Melkor at first tries to fight anyway, and it is only after he is defeated that he has his trembling moment.

I wrote the above a week ago and intended to try my hand at editing the text in the way I suggest, but haven't had the time to sit down and do so. So I thought I might as well just post the suggestion so that you can think about the idea, and I'll try to provide a text to show what I have in mind later this week. Not sure if this idea is at all tenable for you, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Findegil]

Thank you for charring your thoughts. You may already anticipate that I will consider your idea only a second-best solution at best. But second best is sometimes what we have to accept for finding a consensus. And I am a professing combiner, so I am generally open for your idea.

But I have some doubts, that I may name here, for the sack of your editing process:
- The timing and setting of the moment of realization is critical: I think it is an important factor that it is first time meeting after the beginning of Arda. And I don’t see Melkor realize the real reason for his own shrinkage directly after a “physical” defeat by the hand of Tulkas. In such setting he would probably blame his weakness rather to that defeat than to his ‘dispersion’. I could accept that Manwe did not meet Melkor in person at or around Utumno, even if we can only tell that implicit. (we could at least use MK IV to mention that Melkor was led to Valinor at the end of the row, as anybody would assume that Manwe as leader of the homecoming victorious forces would be at the front.)
As you plan the moment of realization come at the council of the Valar that would decide about Melkor’s ‘doom’, I think we have to assume that he was led there not chained by Angainor. That item is at least for me more than a physical mean for chaining: It must have some mental binding characteristics to restrict one of the Valar (we have to take into account that it is still Melkor, who could by his own will leave the physical world behind, we are dealing with and not the later Morgoth who was bound to his physical body for good). Being chained by such an item would again weaken Melkor at least in his own perspective, and I at least have some problems to see him realize the real reason for his inability to daunt Manwe by his gaze while being bound by Angainor. Anyhow ‘knelling before Manwe’ seem improbable after he was ‘arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small, lying bound before the silver chair of Manwë.’
But material to work with that issue is there, since MT IV states: ‘Then he … would have … burst out into flaming rebellion - but he is now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He cannot.’ I would not use that to explain before hand why Melkor was not bound at the council but if we can use it later at its proper place (when the ‘doom’ is set) it will explain it in retrospect.
- That said, if we can handle it, we should as well include Melkor’s accusing Manwe of being faithless.
- I can see that at the council the insertions from MT IV will break the action much less, but the gap in style is still there and may be even worth with the text formed out of LT and MT. So, for the sake of your own idea beware of the ‘Frankenstein’-effect! ;-)

Looking forward to reading you editing.
Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Greetings after such a long absence! With the new Nature of Middle-earth book coming out in the next month, I have been thinking once again of this project, and realized I never caught up and reviewed Aiwendil's proposed version of this chapter, and have not taken into account any of your discussions on the matter since. As it has been quite some time since I partook in this project (several years!) my familiarity with the chapter is next to none. I will start from the beginning of the thread and try to gather my thoughts on all the changes, and hopefully share my thoughts on it soon. I just wanted to let everyone know that I am going to return before I embarked on that project. I look forward to continuing!

[Findegil]

Posted by ArcusCalion:

I look forward to continuing!

Me to! It is allway very welcome to have more oppioins in the discussions.

Welcome back.
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I have been trying to work my way through all of the developments, and I have to say, Aiwendil's changes are hard to track given the fundamental restructuring which comes from using a new base text. Could that new version with AAm as the base text be posted in the private forum for easier analysis? I don't have as much free time to restructure the text myself from scratch I'm afraid

[Findegil]

ArcusCalion, can you be a bit more specific where your stuck? I might be able to post a version of my working copy up to the recent main point of discussion. But that is of course not Aiwendils editing purely but (as far as it has come) the result of the discussion so far.

Aiwendil, re-reading our postings about your idea, I see that it must have been dicouraging for you. I am sorry for that, and I now think in the search for consensus more flexibility is worthwihle. I hope I got your idea of the storyline right:
- The Valar sake Angband and drive the forces of Melkor before them to Utumno
- The Valar set a watch upon Cuivienen.
- The Siege of Utumno with many a battle before the gates
- The Valar brake the Gates (by Orome's horn blow) and Manwe summons Melkor to come out.
- Melkor does not come out and the Valar unroof the Halls of Utumno while Melkor takes refuge in the uttermost pits and lunches his last attack by the Balrogs
- Conversation before the gate with Manwe warning about the demage that a farther open fight could cause and his searching allway for compromise rather than risking violence.
- The Valar lay down their weapons and decent into the pits of Utumno.
- Tulkas steps forward as the champion of the Valar and defeits Melkor.
- Melkor is bound with Angainor, draged out of Utumno and the Vorotemnar and Ilterendi are set upon him (=> Thus Melkor can on the one hand go by himself being followed by Tulkas clincing on the chain of Angainor - implicit holding the end of that chain avoiding Melkor to stray from the path - and later at the council not laying bound by Manwe's feed he can kneel before Manwe.)
- Melkor is led to Valinor
- and the Council to judge Melkor is set up. (He must not lay bound before the chair of Manwe!)
(- The argument of Makar from LT could be given to Melkor himself.)
- After the departure of Tulkas from the council we insert Melkor pleading for pardon and offering help in the repair of evils and hurts he had done. (This would be the only part of MT VI to be taken up into our text.)
- Manwe considering the case from LT.
- Manwe's judgement should be a mixture from LT, AAm and LS.

So I think now your story line idea to take the critcial moment of near repenteance to the council of the Valar juding Melkor's case can work and should be tried.

If you don't find time for the editing of the text, please speak up and I will try my best to work from your idea. If that is the way we go forward, please correct my story line from above if necessary.

Meanwhile I will take MT VI and try to edit in accord with that story line idea to fit our volume 3. I think it will be combined with MT VII. ArcusCalion, MT VII: Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion was one chapter in your draft for volume III. Cab you provide your draft, so that I can see where to fit MT VI?

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Findegil, your updated version would be very helpful, if you still have my email.

As for Notes on Motives, I will email you what I have.