4 Of the coming of the Elves

[Aiwendil]

All right, here are my comments on the latest proposal.

CE-SL-11.5b: I gather that the point of this is to remove mention of "taking up again the mastery of Arda" to bring this in line with MT VI, but it introduces a redundancy, since the Valar's trepidation about the hurts they will cause to Arda is then mentioned twice. Also, the editing of Manwe's speech makes him repeat "Melkor" unnecessarily. If we do edit this to agree with MT, I think better would be:

that we should CE-SL-11.5b{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows{ of Melkor}.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife{.}

CE-EX-28b: Here you (rather cleverly) try to use material from <b>LT</b> to narrate the story outlined in <b>MT</b>. But one must be careful! There is a superficial similarity between the statement from <b>LT</b> and the story in <b>MT</b>, but there is also a critical difference: In <b>LT</b>, where Melkor has been a bit more of a Loki-esque figure than the great evil he later became, the Valar decide to try to treat with him before they go to war - for they have a reasonable expectation that he might listen to them. In <b>MT</b>, there is no suggestion that this possibility occurs to them until after the war, when Melkor pleads for mercy on his own initiative. In the later Legendarium, it is hard to believe that the Valar could think they could "entreat him to better deeds" as if he were a wayward schoolboy. So I'm sorry to say I don't think this works, and I don't think it successfully enacts the story outlined in <b>MT</b>.

CE-EX-28.2: I'm still unsure about "tilkal". Even if we accept tambe, latuken, ilsa, and kanu (and I have doubts about the phonology of latuken and ilsa in later Quenya), laure, I'm pretty sure, only refers to the colour, not the metal after the Lost Tales. But I'd need to refresh myself on Quenya, or consult someone more knowledgeable, to be sure.

Again, though, I don't see a problem with the word "magic" here.

CE-EX-28.4: I think that Vorotemnar and Ilterindi are fine in later Quenya, though again, my Quenya knowledge is very rusty.

CE-EX-28.6: I still feel that the language here is very much that of an analytical note by Tolkien, not a narrative. You rightly remove "covering action", but "sphere of influence" still grates. However, I'm not sure that this addition is needed for the purpose you use it for - already above, we say that they wish to make war upon Melkor "and deliver the Quendi from the shadows" (of Melkor). So I suggest that even if we are taking up this part of the <b>MT</b> story, we do not actually need this addition.

CE-EX-37b: There is still confusion here caused by merging the LT and AAm stories. In the latter, and in our text, it is told that the siege lasts for years. In AAm this is followed by the statement that at last the gates of Utumno were broken. In the proposal here, however, it's followed by the statement from LT that the Valar came to the gates of Utumno and Melkor shut them before their faces. In LT, this describes the beginning of an altogether far shorter battle, but it rings very odd here. I suppose one could posit that in all the war up to this point, the Valar had never actually come close enough to the gates that Orome's horn could have blasted them open, but this seems like quite a stretch to me, especially since AAm specifically locates the fighting before the gates of Utumno. As nice and vivid as the LT imagery is, I still think it has to go in this instance.

CE-EX-37.5: The statement that the halls are unroofed is from AAm, whereas unless I'm mistaken the description of Tulkas and Ulmo breaking the gates but not utterly destroying the caverns is from LT. If there's a contradiction, then, the halls being unroofed has to take precedence.

CE-EX-38.1b and following: The addition from LT is, I gather, intended to help achieve the story of MT VI. But the character of the interaction between Melkor and the Valar here is quite different from anything in the later sources, and I don't think that it quite works. In LT (and CE-EX-38.1b), Melko somewhat comically speaks to the Valar as if they were friends he was inviting to tea, and this kind of fairy-tale naive guile doesn't at all fit with the later conception of Melkor, much less with that in MT. But more importantly, this doesn't actually do anything to achieve the story in MT VI, for there Melkor's deception is one of feigned repentance and abasement, not feigned congeniality.

In LT, the Valar then decide that they cannot overcome Melkor by force (which you have edited out here) and therefore they pretend to accept his "fawning insolence" in order to come at him unawares, even to the point of saying they have come to salute him. This, too, is gone in the later sources and nothing in MT suggests that it was resurrected.

CE-EX-38.6b and following: As I've argued above, I think the LT material doesn't actually do anything to establish the story from MT, which means that these insertions are doing all the work. And I'm afraid they still simply don't read as narrative to me. The first part (38.6b) is less problematic, but the rest (38.7b, 38.8b) is very much in the voice of Tolkien making notes for himself, not that of a narrative - on top of which the many (necessary) deletions make it read somewhat oddly. 38.9 is certainly fine narrative prose, and in fact of all the LT additions so far is the only one that seems to me to go some way toward telling the story Tolkien outlined in MT VI - but it is not enough.

CE-EX-45, -39e: Again, the distant, analytical writing of MT VI is very jarring against the vivid narrative of LT. But I don't think this is as problematic as the section at CE-EX-38.1b.

Those are my specific reactions to the current proposal - but to step back slightly, my view of this is that I don't really see the value in going to heroic lengths to adopt the story as projected in MT VI, when it requires such drastic interventions in the text and - even in the best case - results in a text that is stylistically and tonally incoherent. I don't see that we have any obligation to follow MT in places where it radically departs from the story of LQ, AAm, and other late texts.

I'm sorry to return from such a long hiatus with such an argumentative post! I hope you're doing well - I heard from a friend who lives in Germany that COVID was pretty bad there for a while; I hope your friends and family are safe and healthy.

[Findegil]

I'm sorry to return from such a long hiatus with such an argumentative post!

Aiwendil, thank you very much for this post! I don’t think you have to apologies, because at least for me, it exactly what was needed at this point of our discussion.

Those are my specific reactions to the current proposal - but to step back slightly, my view of this is that I don't really see the value in going to heroic lengths to adopt the story as projected in MT VI, when it requires such drastic interventions in the text and - even in the best case - results in a text that is stylistically and tonally incoherent. I don't see that we have any obligation to follow MT in places where it radically departs from the story of LQ, AAm, and other late texts.

I agree that we do not have an obligation to follow MT, but my feeling is that its analyses of motives and character does add a lot to the understanding of Manwë and Melkor/Morgoth. I am very reluctant to withhold that from our imagined readers. That said, I am now very much inclined to use a version of MT VI in Volume III, where its analytic style is much more appropriate. But to allow that, our storyline here has to agree to it.
With that let’s start with Aiwendil’s specific reactions:
CE-SL-11.5b: Agreed.
CE-EX-28b: I do not think that the similarity between LT and MT is ‘superficial’. Some motives have long roots, and Manwë leaning always rather to peace and treaty than to victory by violence, is clearly one such long rooted motive. Considering MT storyline, how could we think that Melkor asking for pardon in the moment of obvious defeat, could have changed Manwë’s mind, if he had not believed that a true repentance of Melkor was possible? But none the less your criticism is right, since there is big difference of what Manwë might have hoped for and what the Valar in conclave did plan. For the storyline of MT VI work, where the Valar in conclave do deny the immediate freedom of Melkor, the earlier conclave can not hope to ‘entreat him to better deeds’.
CE-EX-28.2: If ‘tilkal’ has to go as a name that is okay with me. The actual idea of this editing was to adopt the name without giving the meaning.
I still think that ‘magic’ was in Tolkien’s later vocabulary reserved for the ‘deceits of the enemy’ (black magic). But I am open exchange it by some other fitting word instead of ‘power’. But my feeling is that the Greece-roouted ‘theurgy’ is totally out of tone.
CE-EX-28.4: My knowledge of Quenya is clearly weaker than yours. If you think the names have to go that is ok for me.
CE-EX-28.6: Agreed.
CE-EX-37b: Okay, I see your point. We have to change this.
CE-EX-37.5: Is there a contradiction? In AAm immediately after ‘the halls are unroofed’ ‘Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit’. That wording suggests for me at least strongly that not all caverns where laid open. Specially if we look to the corresponding LQ text: ‘Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; …’
CE-EX-38.1b and following: I accept you criticism. The exchange with Melkor’s messenger has to go.
CE-EX-38.6b and following: This is clearly the core issue and there is no way around at least some of these materials, if (as I still think we should) we want to tell the story as given in MT VI. Let’s see if I can do better below.
CE-EX-45, CE-EX-39e: I think this can be amended by some ‘clever editing’. As the result is the same, we do not really need the actual text of MT VI here.

Okay, here is my next try:

And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should CE-SL-11.5c{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows{ of Melkor}.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife{.} CE-EX-28b <LT ; and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named CE-EX-28.2{therefore }tilkal,{[Footnote to the text: T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the {'magic'}[poetic] names of ordinary telpe and kulu.]} and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilkal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilkal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named {Angaino}[Angainor] CE-EX-28.4, the oppressor, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind for ever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft.>CE-EX-28.6
{§21 }But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-SL-12{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor in the North CE-SL-12.1{ and make an end}. CE-EX-30 <LT Now as Aulë smithied the {Gods}[Valar] arrayed themselves in armour, CE-EX-31{ which they had of Makar, and he was fain to see them} putting on weapons and going as to warCE-EX-32{, howso their wrath be directed against Melko}. But when the great {Gods}[Valar] and all their folk were armed, then Manwë climbed into his blue chariot whose three horses were the whitest that roamed in Oromë's domain, and his hand bore a great white bow that would shoot an arrow like a gust of wind across the widest seas. CE-EX-33{Fionwe his son stood behind him and Nornore}[Eönwë] who was his herald ran before; but Oromë rode alone upon CE-EX-34{a chestnut}[Nahar his] horse and had a spear, and Tulkas strode mightily beside his stirrup, having a tunic of hide and a brazen belt and no weapon save a gauntlet upon his right hand, iron-bound. CE-EX-35{Telimektar his son but just war-high was by his shoulder with a long sword girt about his waist by a silver girdle. }There rode the {Fanturi}[Fëanturi] upon a car of black, and there was a black horse upon the side of Mandos and a dappled grey upon the side of Lóriën, and Salmar {and Omar }came behind running speedily, but Aulë who was late tarrying overlong at his smithy came last, and he was not armed, but caught up his long-handled hammer as he left his forge and fared hastily to the borders of the Shadowy Sea, and the fathoms of his chain were borne behind by four of his smithy-folk.
Upon those shores Falman-Ossë met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo Vailimo was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches. Thus was it that the {Gods}[Valar] got them over the sea and through the isles, and set foot upon the wide lands, and marched in great power and anger ever more to the North. Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.> Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. CE-EX-35.5b{In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved. }CE-SL-13{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him.}CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into CE-EX-37c <LT {There in }the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar {Ringil}[of Illuin] , there they came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not{, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade Melko come forth}.>{the far North and}Thus began the long siege of Utumno.
{ 1092-1100
§49 }That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
{ 1099
§50 }It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken CE-EX-37d <LT , when{Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but} Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade {Melko}[Melkor] come forth. CE-EX-38.1cBut though deep down within those halls {Melko}[Melkor] heard him and was in doubt, he would still not come>. Therefore Utumos CE-EX-37.5b{ and its} halls [h]were [/u]unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-EX-38 {a host of}<AAm, late scribbeld changes his> Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained <AAm, late scribbeld changes faithfull to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.>

CE-EX-39g<LT Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth{ at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words}, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear{ from Melko's words} that {he}[Melkor] was awake and wary{ in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the Gods he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls} - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how {these twain}we may come upon him CE-EX-38.2b{ unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways}." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4b<LT{Then}Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and {now}then they {follow}followed Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. CE-EX-38.5b{Then said Manwë: "Behold, we have come and salute you here in your own halls; come now and be in Valinor." But Melko might not thus easily forgo his sport. "Nay first," said he, "wilt thou come Manwë and kneel before me, and after you all the Valar; but last shall come Tulkas and kiss my foot, for I have in mind something for which I owe Poldorea no great love." Now he purposed to spurn Tulkas in the mouth in payment of that buffet long ago.}Thus> CE-EX-38.6b <MT; VI Manwë at last {faces}faced Melkor again, as he {has}had not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he {has}had now less personal force than Manwë, and {can}could no longer daunt him with his gaze.{
Either Manwë must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it.[Footnote to the text: One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', CE-EX-43bOrcs, Balrogs, etc. power of recuperation and multiplication. So that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power has gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.] As with all other characters there must be a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents - and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.}
CE-EX-38.7 CE-EX-38.8c <MT; VI {He feigns remorse and repentance. He}Now Melkor actually {kneels}kneeled before Manwë and {surrenders}surrendered.{ - in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he fears would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he has the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he offers} He offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he {has}had done. It {is}was this offer which {seduces or deludes}deluded Manwë{ - Manwë must be shown to have his own inherent fault (though not sin)[Footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]: he has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the status quo' - to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations}. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he {grants}granted Melkor's prayer.>CE-EX-38.9<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.>
CE-EX-38.91b<LQ {Nonetheless}But the CE-SL-17{fortress}fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; CE-EX-44d <LT thereforeTulkas and Ulmo {break the gates of Utumna and pile}piled hills of stone upon {them}the broken gates of Utumno. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when {Melko}[Melkor] was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of {Melko}[Melkor] find their end>; and others were dispersed in the years of that strife and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
CE-EX-44e <LT After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to {Valmar}[Valimar] by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> CE-EX-44.5b CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is }a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small{, lying bound} and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him {speaketh}spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violenceCE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!" Thereat arose}. And {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but {Melko}[Melkor] CE-SL-14writhed in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15{unchained Melko and }fought {him}Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness and {his}the doom CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] {should Melko be chained in}CE-EX-39f <MT; VI Melkor {is}was remitted to> a vault of Mandos{ by that chain Angaino}, and thereafter should he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for four ages yet dwell as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwe, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the Gods suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
Such was the doom of Manwe, and {even to Makar and Measse}[all the folk of Valinor] it seemed good, albeit Tulkas and {Palúrien}[Kementári] thought it merciful to peril.> CE-EX-47{and he}And Melkor was {bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and} led captive CE-SL-16b{; and the world had peace for a great age. Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
§22 But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor bound hand and foot and blindfold, and he was cast} into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for {seven [>}three{]} ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon CE-SL-18{.}<moved from above ; and the world had peace for a great age.> CE-EX-47.5 <LT Now {doth}did Valinor enter upon its greatest time of peace, and all the earth beside, while {Melko}[Melkor] bideth in the deepest vaults of Mandos and his heart {grows}growed black within him.{
}Behold the tumults of the sea {abate}abated slowly, and the fires beneath the mountains {die}died; the earth quakes no more and the fierceness of the cold and the stubbornness of the hills and rivers of ice {is}was melted to the uttermost North and to the deepest South{, even to the regions about Ringil and Helkar}.>

And here for a smoother read, plain text:

And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should make war upon Melkor at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife; and of the redes there spoken the Valar devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his power a seventh which he named tilkal, and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilkal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilkal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named Angainor, the oppressor, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind for ever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft.
But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the fortresses of Melkor in the North. Now as Aulë smithied the Valar arrayed themselves in armour, putting on weapons and going as to war. But when the great Valar and all their folk were armed, then Manwë climbed into his blue chariot whose three horses were the whitest that roamed in Oromë's domain, and his hand bore a great white bow that would shoot an arrow like a gust of wind across the widest seas. Eönwë who was his herald ran before; but Oromë rode alone upon Nahar his horse and had a spear, and Tulkas strode mightily beside his stirrup, having a tunic of hide and a brazen belt and no weapon save a gauntlet upon his right hand, iron-bound. There rode the Fëanturi upon a car of black, and there was a black horse upon the side of Mandos and a dappled grey upon the side of Lóriën, and Salmar came behind running speedily, but Aulë who was late tarrying overlong at his smithy came last, and he was not armed, but caught up his long-handled hammer as he left his forge and fared hastily to the borders of the Shadowy Sea, and the fathoms of his chain were borne behind by four of his smithy-folk.
Upon those shores Falman-Ossë met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo Vailimo was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches. Thus was it that the Valar got them over the sea and through the isles, and set foot upon the wide lands, and marched in great power and anger ever more to the North. Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and Hithlum that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There Melkor shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey. Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the Valar.
Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Cuiviénen; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the Valar, save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar of Illuin , there they came upon the huge gates of deep Utumno, and Melkor shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not. Thus began the long siege of Utumno. That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken, when Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade Melkor come forth. But though deep down within those halls Melkor heard him and was in doubt, he would still not come. Therefore Utumos halls were unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithfull to him, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.
Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the Valar were exceeding wroth, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear that Melkor was awake and wary - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how we may come upon him." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig Melkor from his stronghold "or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.
Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, and then they followed Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat Melkor in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. Thus Manwë at last faced Melkor again, as he had not done since he entered Arda. Both were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he had now less personal force than Manwë, and could no longer daunt him with his gaze.
Now Melkor[/u] actually kneeled] before Manwë and surrendered. He offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he had done. It was this offer which deluded Manwë. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he granted Melkor's prayer. In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the Valar would at his bidding indeed have received Melkor into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.
But[/u] the fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; therefore Tulkas and Ulmo piled hills of stone upon the broken gates of Utumno. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when Melkor was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of Melkor find their end; and others were dispersed in the years of that strife and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
After these things did the Valar return to Valimar by long ways and dark, guarding Melkor every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage. Now a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and Melkor arraigned before all the Valar great and small and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violence. And Kementári arose in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but Melkor writhed in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the Valar, yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have fought Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of Kementári, yet was it his thought that Melkor was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness and the doom at the counci> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the Valar Melkor was remitted to a vault of Mandos, and thereafter should he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for four ages yet dwell as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the Gods suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
Such was the doom of Manwë, and all the folk of Valinor it seemed good, albeit Tulkas and Kementári thought it merciful to peril. And Melkor was led captive into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for three ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon; and the world had peace for a great age. Now did Valinor enter upon its greatest time of peace, and all the earth beside, while Melkor bideth in the deepest vaults of Mandos and his heart growed black within him. Behold the tumults of the sea abated slowly, and the fires beneath the mountains died; the earth quakes no more and the fierceness of the cold and the stubbornness of the hills and rivers of ice was melted to the uttermost North and to the deepest South.

I hope you're doing well - I heard from a friend who lives in Germany that COVID was pretty bad there for a while; I hope your friends and family are safe and healthy.

Thank you for the good wishes! Some friends have been infected with COVID, but none faired to badly. Now with summer coming along and the vaccination spreading more and more, the risk is abated a bit. I hope you and your family and friends have also come well through this difficult times!

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

CE-EX-28b: Perhaps "superficial" was the wrong word, but my point (which I think we agree on) is that while the story in LT resembles the MT story in some ways, it also differs from it in important ways.

CE-EX-28.2: Sorry, I think I misread the proposed edit and missed that the etymology was removed. I'd need to do a little research to decide whether tilkal is OK - I'm afraid my Quenya knowledge is not as deep as it once was!

CE-EX-28.4: No, what I meant was that I think these two names are good and we can keep them.

CE-EX-37.5: I don't necessarily think there is a contradiction, for the reasons you give - my point was only that, in any case, th statement about the halls being unroofed should not be deleted.

But to the main point, CE-EX-38.6b and following. I've taken a few days to think this over before replying, because it seems to be a real sticking point, and I'm not sure how to resolve it. Insofar as less of the text of MT VI intrudes here, I think it's an improvement. But the real crux of the issue for me, I think, is that no matter how we slice it, we inevitably have the critical moment of this story being narrated via a non-narrative text. It's a very jarring change in tone, and I'm afraid that the only way to avoid that would be to modify the text to the point where we're no longer editing Tolkien but rewriting him. To be honest, I'm even still a little bit uneasy about how much we're chopping up and adding in the LT, which also has a different tone, of course, from LQ and AAm, though in the end I think that that disparity is not great enough to warrant its wholesale exclusion. But when we add in MT text, especially to convey critical plot developments, it feels to me as if we've constructed Frankenstein's monster, an ungainly assemblage of pieces from obviously very different places sewn together.

And the thing is, I don't see the necessity of doing it that way. I suppose you could say it's incumbent on us to try, since MT is later than AAm, and since we can't really know that a change is unworkable unless we try to work it. But the conclusion I'm drawing from these attempts is that it is, in fact, to be classed as an unworkable projection.

So, I don't know. Left to my own devices, I certainly would not take up this particular element of MT VI, but the goal here is, of course, consensus. It seems that you feel pretty strongly in favour of incorporating this version of the story, so maybe you could explain why you see it as so worthwhile? Perhaps if I could see some real benefit to following MT in this instance, I would be willing to accept the scarring that this surgery is doing to the text, but as of now I just don't see it.

Thank you for the good wishes! Some friends have been infected with COVID, but none faired to badly. Now with summer coming along and the vaccination spreading more and more, the risk is abated a bit. I hope you and your family and friends have also come well through this difficult times!

Very glad to hear it! My friends and family have escaped it too. I tested positive back in February, but fortunately never developed any symptoms.

[Findegil]

CE-EX-26b: Okay.

CE-EX-28.2 & CE-EX-28.4: If you find some linguistical doubts about any of these names, we can edit them out.

CE-EX-37.5: Agreed, and my new version has it included.

CE-EX-38.6b and following: Good that you see an improvement, otherwise it would have been a bit of a disappointment 😊.

I suppose you could say it's incumbent on us to try, since MT is later than AAm, and since we can't really know that a change is unworkable unless we try to work it.

This is always an argument at the start of the editing, and as you might expect, I do not share your feeling that the text I created feels like a Frankenstein’s monster.

It seems that you feel pretty strongly in favour of incorporating this version of the story, so maybe you could explain why you see it as so worthwhile?

That is true, I would in this case rather skip all parts from LT than not using the story line of MT VI. But I fear that would not help get ride of your Frankenstein feeling. I tried to explain my reasons in the last post, but maybe it was too vague.

When ever Tolkien during his work on the Legendarium wrote at length about (e.g. LT, Laws and Customs) or analyzed (e.g. MT) the character of Manwe, the picture is that of a “thinker” rather than a “maker”. Manwe searches always for compromise not for conflict and avoids violence by all possible means. That picture does not come through in the shorter Sil77. There the focus is, somewhat naturally due to its shortness, on his actions: He gainsays Melkors claim for Arda in the beginning, he it is that resolves to attack Utumno and we assume that he send Eonwe to bring down Morgoth at the end of the first age.

In our editing we do in some places already include a kind differentiation, like Manwe’s reluctance against the hiding of Valinor or the story of his concourse with Manwe about elvish re-embodiment. But the analysis in MT VI does much more: It set him in a sharp contrast to Melkor and in that way reveals a lot about both characters. (By the way LT did the same, but with a different characterization of Melko as it stood at that time.) A similar argument could be made about Melkors characterization, but since he is a “maker”, he is much more in the focus of the story and we can learn much more about him by judging his actions. None the less are the directness of MT VI about Melkors “dispersing” and the immediacy in which it tells us about Melkors “trembling moment” unique.

That said it is clear (now) that we can not include that analysis in our main narrative. But there is still our famous Volume 3: THE LORE OF THE WISE. We could assume that we could include MT VI there, what ever we do with the storyline here, we “just” would have to edit it accordingly. But I think that will not work. Once Melkor is bound by Angainor, I do not see a chance for that reveling first encounter between Manwe and Melkor since ages nor for the trembling moment of near repentance of Melkor once Tulkas has stepped forward as champion of the Valar to fight him down.

I hope, I could make my motivation clearer this time.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Thank you for explaining your reasoning. I certainly agree that, if possible, it would be nice to include as much of this elaboration of the characters of Manwe and Melkor as possible. I'm just not sure how much is possible.

It seems to me, though, that the more crucial point here is not so much Melkor's deceptive surrender at the climax of the battle as it is Manwe's inclination toward lenience and forgiveness. What if we were to keep the AAm/LQ narrative for the battle, with Melkor defeated and chained, but also keep the LT council where the Valar debate what to do with him? Then we would still have the strong characterization of Manwe as the seeker of reconciliation, but without having to rely on a sentence from MT to narrate a critical part of the story. We might even find it possible to touch up the LT council scene with bits from MT to suggest Melkor's feigned repentance at this point, and highlight Manwe's attempt at compromise. Thus, while rejecting the part of the MT story that contradicts AAm/LQ as an unimplementable projected change, we could use it to enrich the depiction of character and motive inherent in the earlier story. This would, in my opinion, do far less damage to Tolkien's texts than changing the whole story of the battle by splicing in sentences from MT.

I'd also note that I don't see the chaining of Melkor here as precluding the moment of realization by him and Manwe about his dispersal of power, nor the moment of near repentance. The only difference is that in this case, despite the realization, Melkor at first tries to fight anyway, and it is only after he is defeated that he has his trembling moment.

I wrote the above a week ago and intended to try my hand at editing the text in the way I suggest, but haven't had the time to sit down and do so. So I thought I might as well just post the suggestion so that you can think about the idea, and I'll try to provide a text to show what I have in mind later this week. Not sure if this idea is at all tenable for you, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Findegil]

Thank you for charring your thoughts. You may already anticipate that I will consider your idea only a second-best solution at best. But second best is sometimes what we have to accept for finding a consensus. And I am a professing combiner, so I am generally open for your idea.

But I have some doubts, that I may name here, for the sack of your editing process:
- The timing and setting of the moment of realization is critical: I think it is an important factor that it is first time meeting after the beginning of Arda. And I don’t see Melkor realize the real reason for his own shrinkage directly after a “physical” defeat by the hand of Tulkas. In such setting he would probably blame his weakness rather to that defeat than to his ‘dispersion’. I could accept that Manwe did not meet Melkor in person at or around Utumno, even if we can only tell that implicit. (we could at least use MK IV to mention that Melkor was led to Valinor at the end of the row, as anybody would assume that Manwe as leader of the homecoming victorious forces would be at the front.)
As you plan the moment of realization come at the council of the Valar that would decide about Melkor’s ‘doom’, I think we have to assume that he was led there not chained by Angainor. That item is at least for me more than a physical mean for chaining: It must have some mental binding characteristics to restrict one of the Valar (we have to take into account that it is still Melkor, who could by his own will leave the physical world behind, we are dealing with and not the later Morgoth who was bound to his physical body for good). Being chained by such an item would again weaken Melkor at least in his own perspective, and I at least have some problems to see him realize the real reason for his inability to daunt Manwe by his gaze while being bound by Angainor. Anyhow ‘knelling before Manwe’ seem improbable after he was ‘arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small, lying bound before the silver chair of Manwë.’
But material to work with that issue is there, since MT IV states: ‘Then he … would have … burst out into flaming rebellion - but he is now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He cannot.’ I would not use that to explain before hand why Melkor was not bound at the council but if we can use it later at its proper place (when the ‘doom’ is set) it will explain it in retrospect.
- That said, if we can handle it, we should as well include Melkor’s accusing Manwe of being faithless.
- I can see that at the council the insertions from MT IV will break the action much less, but the gap in style is still there and may be even worth with the text formed out of LT and MT. So, for the sake of your own idea beware of the ‘Frankenstein’-effect! ;-)

Looking forward to reading you editing.
Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Greetings after such a long absence! With the new Nature of Middle-earth book coming out in the next month, I have been thinking once again of this project, and realized I never caught up and reviewed Aiwendil's proposed version of this chapter, and have not taken into account any of your discussions on the matter since. As it has been quite some time since I partook in this project (several years!) my familiarity with the chapter is next to none. I will start from the beginning of the thread and try to gather my thoughts on all the changes, and hopefully share my thoughts on it soon. I just wanted to let everyone know that I am going to return before I embarked on that project. I look forward to continuing!