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Old 05-17-2021, 09:41 PM   #1
Morthoron
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Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Fanficolfin, Fingolfin's alter ego at Eldamar's Saturday night open mic comedy revue:

"Hey, nothing smells worse on a hot Summer's day than Tirion upon Túna."

Ba-dump-tisch

"I just flew in last night with Gothmog. Boy, were his Balrog's wings sore."

*crickets*

"Tough crowd."
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Old 05-18-2021, 07:09 AM   #2
Huinesoron
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In The Hobbit, Gandalf says of Beorn:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbit: Queer Lodgings
I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.
Gandalf's preferred theory is that Beorn's people have been living in the Vale of Anduin since before the Fall of Thangorodrim - so pretty much since Men first passed through there. I say he's wrong: the evidence actually suggests that Beorn himself is one of those first Men. Consider:

- It is never said that Beorn is dead, only that his son has taken his title. One imagines an undying (not Immortal) skin-changer feels the need for change every now and then, so he could have just moved away. (We should ignore Tolkien's claim in Letter 144 that "Beorn is dead"; death of the author, etc.)

- We know that Men can attain unnaturally long life: there are 11 examples in the Third Age (the Nazgul, Gollum, and Bilbo), and a magician of Beorn's caliber could doubtless find a way. One clear possibility is the Tale of Adanel from the Athrabeth, in HoME X: it asserts that Men originally had unlimited life, with the Gift being only that they would leave Arda when they at last died. This was taken from them by Iluvatar because they worshipped Morgoth for a time - but perhaps Beorn had already left, abandoning his own race for the company of bears. He may even have gone off with Nuin the Dark Elf and Tu the Sorceror, if we can accept a bit of Lost Tales material.

- The first Man to enter Beleriand was named Beor - a name given to him by the elves, but taken from his own language. He can't be Beorn himself, but it says that the name is plausible for the time period.

- Most importantly, 'beorn' is an Elvish word. In fact it's the word for "Man", in Nandorin - the language of the elves east of the Misty Mountains, exactly where Beorn lived.

The only possibility is that Beorn is one of the first Men to awaken. He didn't stay among his people, but immediately headed west, learning along the way the magic that transforms him into a bear. By the time the Men of Hildorien fell into the worship of the Dark, he was safely ensconsed in the Vale of Anduin - and his name became the name for his entire race among the elves who dwelt there.

It's only logical, after all.

hS
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Old 05-26-2021, 05:24 AM   #3
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Glancing through the "It is said"s of the Appendices, there's a lot to work with. So we can firmly argue that:

- Elrond never fought Angmar. His/Rivendell's involvement carries not one but two 'it is said's. He just sat at home drinking Dorwinion wine while the men of Arnor fought and died.

- Aragorn I was not killed by wolves as it is said; much like Anakin Skywalker, he clearly defected to the enemy and became a leader of the Orc armies in the Misty Mountains. He may have lived long enough to be behind the capture and torture of Celebrian.

- The Witch-King was actually entirely absent from the Fall of Angmar - both his presence in Fornost and his appearance on the battlefield are 'said'.

- Gimli never went to Valinor. There's two mentions of the story, one with 'it is said' and the other 'we have heard tell'. Actually, Legolas just got bored with him and shot him in the back one day. "Does that only count as one?"

- There were actually sixty thousand Istari - it's only said there were five. The "five wizards" Gandalf mentions are just a club, like the Inklings.

The others are fairly boring; I'm not sure there's a lot you can do with 'maybe Merry and Pippin weren't entombed next to Aragorn!!!'.

hS
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Old 05-26-2021, 10:00 AM   #4
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"Beorn is dead." --JRR Tolkien.

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Beorn is dead; see vol. I p. 241. He appeared in The Hobbit. It was then the year Third Age 2940 (Shire-reckoning 1340). We are now in the years 3018-19 (1418-19). Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man.
Letter 144
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Old 05-26-2021, 11:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
"Beorn is dead." --JRR Tolkien.

Letter 144
"(We should ignore Tolkien's claim in Letter 144 that "Beorn is dead"; death of the author, etc.)" -- Huinesoron, post #25.

Yeah, so I saw that after I'd written most of the post and decided not to scrap it just because - pfft - the actual author specifically denied it. (One could argue that 'Beorn is dead' doesn't strictly mean 'and had a normal Mannish lifespan'... but the full quote contradicts that too, at least by implication. ^_~)

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Old 05-26-2021, 05:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
"(We should ignore Tolkien's claim in Letter 144 that "Beorn is dead"; death of the author, etc.)" -- Huinesoron, post #25.

Yeah, so I saw that after I'd written most of the post and decided not to scrap it just because - pfft - the actual author specifically denied it. (One could argue that 'Beorn is dead' doesn't strictly mean 'and had a normal Mannish lifespan'... but the full quote contradicts that too, at least by implication. ^_~)

hS
Yes, but was Beorn buried with a Silmaril? It seems nearly every dead personage in The Hobbit got one. Like costume jewelry. After all, Feanor could have sold the rights in perpetuity to a Chinese manufacturing firm that makes high-end knock offs: Coach, Gucci, Silmarils.
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Old 05-26-2021, 06:40 PM   #7
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Made under license from the Saul Zaentz Company d/b/a Feanorian Enterprises, by Weta Workshop of Goblin-Town
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Old 05-27-2021, 01:48 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
Yes, but was Beorn buried with a Silmaril? It seems nearly every dead personage in The Hobbit got one. Like costume jewelry. After all, Feanor could have sold the rights in perpetuity to a Chinese manufacturing firm that makes high-end knock offs: Coach, Gucci, Silmarils.
Ah, well as it happens I can prove once and for all that the Arkenstone isn't a Silmaril - because the Silmarils weren't jewels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silm: Of the Silmarils
Then [Feanor] began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils.

>>>As<<< three great Jewels they were in form.
Yes, just like balrog shadows, the Silmarils had the appearance of something, without actually being that thing. Any later text simply calling them jewels is just carrying the analogy along, just like the wings spread wall to wall.

They were actually... paintings, maybe? Paintings would work. Makes Morgoth's crown look a little daft, but then, it always did.

hS
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