The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-08-2020, 04:11 PM   #1
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annúminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Well, Tolkien also says (in Letters IIRC) that one of the One Ring's powers was that of Command: an Aragorn wielding the One could not only have forced Rohan and Gondor to do his bidding, but possibly could have turned the Dunlendings, Haradrim and Easterlings as well. Depending on the level of his fall, he could perhaps even have suborned orcs to his service!

All of Sauron's victories, aside from the corruption of Numenor, were accomplished by brute force- whether commanded by him directly, or through proxies like Angmar and the Wainriders. As much as anything, Sauron's desire was to be a lord of slaves. The Ring would have reflected the will that made it- see what happened at the Black Gate when the Ring was destroyed? (note that even in the War of the Last Alliance, Sauron didn't come out to play until all was lost, expending his servants' lives instead)
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2020, 10:17 AM   #2
Gardener of Gamwich
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: England
Posts: 7
Gardener of Gamwich has just left Hobbiton.
Thank you William That's very helpful. Your response is addressed, at least partially, below.

First thing, and most importantly, to go back to the original question: Why was Sauron so powerful during his war against the Celebrimbor and the elves? I originally suggested that Sauron's possession of the One Ring should be considered as a possible factor. The discussion that has followed suggests it was not a factor and I can see why. Mithadan pointed out that without the Elves wearing the Three, the One Ring would have had less power in the Second Age than in the Third Age when the Three were being worn/had been used during Sauron's absence to protect and enhance Imladris, Lorien and Lindon.

I suppose we can take Mithadan's argument even further. In "On The Rings Of Power And The Third Age" in the Silmarilion we see that after Eregion was laid waste, "...Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of the Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind." So when Sauron's forces invade Eregion, the Seven and the Nine are still sitting in Celebrimbor's fortress and the Three are secreted away in various Elven kingdoms.

William points out the Professor Tolkien stated that one of the One Ring's powers was that of "Command". So regardless of how much power the One Ring may have given Sauron by combining the powers of the undistributed/unworn Rings of Power (and let's for the moment follow Mithadan's argument that this would have been considerably less power than when they were being worn/had successfully corrupted their bearers) then what the One Ring would have allowed Sauron to do during the invasion of Eregion is command his already overwhelming forces to even greater fury on the attack.

I think that helps answer my original discussion point. I suppose the One Ring might have helped Sauron further embolden his troops, but that there is little doubt he would have succeeded in laying waste to Eregion without it. The answer to the original question just seems to be, in William's words, "brute force".

A couple of further thoughts resulting from William's post:

Considering William's response regarding what the One Ring's power of "Command" would have allowed Aragorn to do had he claimed and mastered it. As well as potentially suborning the Orcs, could he not have suborned the Nazgul as well? In "The Hunt For the Ring" in Unfinished Tales when the Nazgul arrive at Isengard, Saruman says to the Lord of the Nazgul: "I know what you seek though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it then you would bow down before me and call me Lord."

And then William's reference to "what happened at the Black Gate when the Ring was destroyed". I think what William is referring to is the fact that when the One Ring is destroyed, the orcs of Sauron's army fighting at the Black Gate are suddenly left bereft of direction and will to fight and run away in confusion or even slay themselves. "The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid."

But the effect of the destruction of the One Ring is described still further:

In the next paragraph:"Then all the Captains of the West cried aloud, for their hearts were filled with a new hope in the midst of darkness."

And in the next chapter. "And the shadow departed, and the Sun was unveiled, and light leaped forth; and the waters of the Anduin shone like silver, and in all the houses of the City men sang for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell."

And in the unpublished Epilogue (and forgive the length of the quote but I love every word – please indulge me):
"March the twenty-fifth!" [Sam] said. "This day seventeen years ago, Rose wife, I didn't think I should ever see thee again. But I kept on hoping."
"I never hoped at all, Sam," [Rose] said, "not until that very day; and then suddenly I did. About noon it was, and I felt so glad that I began singing. And mother said: "Quiet, lass! There's ruffians about." And I said: "Let them come! Their time will soon be over. Sam's coming back." And you came."
"I did." said Sam. "To the most belovedest place in all the world. To my Rose and my garden."

It was when I read that Epilogue quote for the first time a couple of years ago and thought about it that I made a connection between Rose suddenly feeling so glad that she began singing and the people of Gondor singing "...for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell."

Seems to me it shows the power/influence of the One Ring/Shadow, extending from Mordor across Gondor and Rohan all the way to the Shire (and maybe on across Lindon); and I suppose, north across Rhovanion, south across Far Harad and east to the Sea of Rhûn and beyond.

I wonder if Nob, Bob and Barliman (despite the situation in Bree) and Tom and Goldberry all started singing too? (Not that Tom needed much encouragement.)
Gardener of Gamwich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2020, 08:31 AM   #3
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annúminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Considering William's response regarding what the One Ring's power of "Command" would have allowed Aragorn to do had he claimed and mastered it. As well as potentially suborning the Orcs, could he not have suborned the Nazgul as well? In "The Hunt For the Ring" in Unfinished Tales when the Nazgul arrive at Isengard, Saruman says to the Lord of the Nazgul: "I know what you seek though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it then you would bow down before me and call me Lord."
That opens a whole 'nuther can o' worms, because while the One Ruled the Nine, the Nine were by this time in Sauron's personal possession, and so he had direct and primary control over the wills of the Nazgul, even without the One. How that would have played out if an Aragorn or Galadriel (or Gandalf!) had claimed the One and thus in some way 'rule' over the Nine Rings, even while Sauron physically held them, is interesting. But here is what Tolkien had to say about the case of a person of lesser stature (Frodo) claiming the One:

Quote:
When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same way: cast himself with the Ring into the abyss. If not he would of course have completely failed. It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?

Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt – saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.
--Letter No. 246
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2020, 10:34 AM   #4
Gardener of Gamwich
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: England
Posts: 7
Gardener of Gamwich has just left Hobbiton.
Thank you for this William.

I am beginning to think I'd better ask for a book of Tolkien's Letters for Christmas. Is there a particular edition of the collection you would recommend? Many thanks.
Gardener of Gamwich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2020, 04:28 PM   #5
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annúminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
There really are only two "editions:" the original, and more recent printings with a much better index. The actual letters are the same.

Although a new, expanded edition was proposed, including numerous letters which have come to light since 1981, the Estate decided against it so for now the Carpenter volume is it.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:40 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.