Etymology: Isengard and Helms Deep

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Probably the strongest argument against this is that Isengard didn't start out as Isengard! Its first mention (Home VII, 'Of Hamilcar...') is as "Angrobel (or Irongarth)". No Isen in sight!

Helm's Deep is even more tortured: it looks like it started out as Dimgraef, then picked up a Helm figure - as Heorulf's Clough. It took several iterations (Helmshaugh) to hit Helm's Deep, so unless Tolkien is imagined to just happen to glance up at a map of Jutland and go 'hey, that says "helm" too!' there's no plausible version of this notion.

hS

Thanks Huie, this is the sort of stuff I was looking for to "disprove" the theory.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And this is why one should always start with the HoME when one has a theory about names: if there is one thing Christopher Tolkien does thoroughly (to the point I've seen him accused of doing it to the exclusion of other "more interesting" things), it is trace the evolution of names--and evolve they often did. If you have a theory--as this Danish radio show did--based on final forms, you have to see if that theory still makes sense in light of the documented history.

That said, the idea that Tolkien could have taken some names from a Danish map really ISN'T an outlandish theory. Place names and Scandinavian languages are both things we know he was interested in--the idea that he might have spent some time looking at Danish place-names is entirely plausible, and if this were done at a sufficient remove from when he came to write Book III, it is entirely possible that the fittingness of some names could have struck him: recasting Norse words into (Old) English forms is something he would do.

Unfortunately for the radio show, it just isn't the simplest explanation in this case.

Now I do feel rather silly for starting a thread, rather than simply dusting off the old HoME series. Though I don't think I have it in complete form... I seemed to give up a few volumes in, for even though i fin imaginary etymology interesting it is not exactly what I would call "an easy read".