4 Of the coming of the Elves

[Aiwendil]

We'll have to come back to the big unresolved issues regarding Myths Transformed, but for now here are some more comments up to CE-EX-52.

CE-EX-44: Typo "brook" for "broke":

CE-EX-44 <LT Tulkas and Ulmo {break}broke the gates of {Utumna}[Utumno]

Also, there's a missing {Melko}[Melkor]:

After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment,

But we also have a redundancy due to a combination of different texts:

After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).

Here we tell that the Valar returned to Valmar with Melkor twice, and this must be fixed irrespective of what we do about the MT story. Of course, as I have argued, I think the story of Melkor's voluntary surrender should be considered an unusable projection, and since the only new detail offered in the second statement here is that Tulkas followed behind clinking Angainor (whereas in the version I advocate, Melkor would be wearing Angainor), I would just remove it entirely:

After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> {Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).}

If we decide to keep the new story, I'd suggest instead deleting the LT statement. I also think that the footnote here is very out of place in a narrative text, even more than the body of the MT text, it is Tolkien analyzing his own writing. I'd delete it. Thus:

{After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.}> Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas{[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.]} who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).

CE-EX-45: There's a missing {Vali}[Valar]:

CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is} a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small

CE-EX-46:

CE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} Thereat arose {Palúrien}[Kementári] in sorrow and tears,

In LT, the "thereat" here refers to Palurien's reaction to Makar's argument. With that removed, it makes it appear that Yavanna is brought to tears by the words of Osse, Orome, etc. I think we should change "thereat" to simply "and", and move "arose" correspondingly:

CE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} {Thereat}And {arose} {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose in sorrow and tears,

CE-SL-14: Again, I think Melkor should be chained. But in any case, I don't see "writhed" as being inappropriate even if he is unchained; I don't think it necessarily implies straining against the chain.

CE-SL-15: Another instance where, if we follow my suggestion, Melkor will be chained and the change won't be needed.

Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.> But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).

Again here I think we have a bad tension between the MT story and that in the preceding section from LT. In MT, it is notable that Melkor was not given immediate freedom, since he submitted willingly. But the preceding section from LT allows no thought that Melkor could possibly be set free - especially since we have removed the one Vala who spoke in favour of him! At the very least, we have to delete the "but". "At the council" is also redundant, since we have already been narrating the council. If we keep the MT element of Melkor's willing submission, then I would emend thus:

Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.>

{But at the council} Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).

Then {he begins}Melkor began to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion - but he {is}was now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He {cannot}/could not do this/. Therefore he {swallows}swallowed the bitter pill (but it greatly {increases}increased his hate, and he ever {afterward}afterwards accused Manwë of being faithless).>

As with the other instances, this should be removed if we accept my argument that this new element not be incorporated.

CE-EX-47: If we accept my argument, this statement should be reinstated.

CE-SL-17:

CE-SL-17{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor{ at Utumno} had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.

This seems somewhat redundant with the LT insertion in CE-EX-44, so that we say twice that evil things lingered in those places. We should either delete one instance or combine them.

CE-EX-48: Is "Tuivana" still a valid name for Vana? I can't recall if it's used outside of LT.

CE-EX-49: I'm not sure about these "unelvish spirits", much less about Mandos's folk roaming Middle-earth.

CE-EX-50:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and }Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else

I think that with the deletion of the Measse bit, the "and" should be kept to introduce that sentence:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, a}[A]nd Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else

I also wonder about the description of Nienna as "cold to the Eldar as to all else" here; it seems to me that the Fui Nienna of LT is a much darker figure than the lady of pity and compassion she later became. So I would remove her from that sentence and have it refer only to Mandos:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and }Mandos{ and {Fui}[Niënna]} {were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else

And finally, we have the statement later (from LQ) that Mandos "had spoken not at all" during the debate. Now, one could argue that the reference here to him being "cold to the Eldar" does not imply that he spoke - and yet, if the implictaion here is not that Mandos and Fui took part in the debate and counselled against taking drastic action out of love for the Eldar, then one wonders why they would be mentioned here at all. So I tend to think that, in the end, even the mention of Mandos ought to be removed:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and Mandos{ and {Fui}[Niënna]} {were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else}

CE-EX-51:

Wherefore, albeit Ossë spake cautiously against it – belike out of that ever-smouldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo - it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manwë.

This has to change, since in the new version Ulmo is against the summons; therefore rebellion against Ulmo can't motivate Osse to speak against it. Without this, we have no information on what Osse's opinion would be - and moreover, it seems less likely in the later Legendarium that he would speak at a council of the Valar anyway. So I suggest:

CE-EX-51.1Wherefore{, albeit Ossë spake cautiously against it – belike out of that ever-smouldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo -} it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manwë.

CE-EX-52:

And Mandos who had spoken not at all in the debate broke silence and said: 'So it is doomed.' CE-EX-52 <AAm And Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen].> For of this summons came many woes that after befell; yet those who hold that the Valar erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, and seeking to wrest the will of Ilúvatar to their own pleasure, speak with the {tongues [read }tongue{]} of Melkor.

Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Oromë alone, and they were filled with dread.

The insertion from AAm seems to me to be in the wrong place, especially since the next sentence, starting with "for" refers back to Mandos's utterance. I think it would be better thus:

And Mandos who had spoken not at all in the debate broke silence and said: 'So it is doomed.' For of this summons came many woes that after befell; yet those who hold that the Valar erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, and seeking to wrest the will of Ilúvatar to their own pleasure, speak with the {tongues [read }tongue{]} of Melkor.

CE-EX-52 <AAm {And }Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen].> Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Oromë alone, and they were filled with dread.

[Findegil]

Nice to have your input Aiwendil.
CE-EX-44: Thanks for pointing out these typos.
Maybe we should first address the real issue, before we go farther. I think, we have boiled it down already to the following question:
Do we follow MT and thus let Melkor pretend to submit an following the Valar into Aman by his own free will or do we leave that aspect of MT out and follow the earlier AAm and LT account in which Tulkas defeats Melkor which is than bound by Againor and forced to Valinor?
Gandalf85 did already state his opinion that he leans more to the MT storyline and found my first chronological editing better than the later.
By reading both versions again, I fully agree with him. Maybe we have to skip some parts of the text or some footnotes as to analytic, but even of that I am not so sure. If we take up the MT version here, we have a shift in the story from a physical struggle between the Valar and Melkor’s agents to a much more mental struggle between Melkor and Manwe. That in such a case the style of the narrative changes from a more direct description of the battle action to a more analytic style is a necessity (how else can a mental struggle be told if not by analyses?).
To be honest, the analytic comments greatly enhance for me at least the characterization of both Melkor and Manwe. Melkor is shown in the moment he finally rejects repentance and Manwe in his struggle to keep Eä functional for Eru’s propose (or on a smaller scale, Ardar inhabitable for the children of Eru) for this he has to keep Melkor at bay without eliminating the Melkor ingredient to much, as that would rob Eä of very much of its potential. The Word of Eru that no one can change the tale against his will, where a warning for both Melkor and Manwe. Melkor did not heed that warning and struggle on until he had spent his full potential without a benefit for him (so it greatly enhanced the ‘Story of Arda’, which otherwise could have been very booring). But Manwe heeded that warning and did only make an end to the inhabiting of Arda by Melkor when Morgoth had personally via dispersion shrunk to insignificance.

Maybe Aiwendil, you could explain a bit more what makes you feel so strongly against the MT stuff here.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

My objection comes down to my view that MT VI text is not a narrative; it's an outline for a new narrative that Tolkien never wrote. For me, this is a clear case for principle 2b, "proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed." That is, it tells us that Tolkien was going to re-write this material, but it does not give us any actual text to use. The phrases that, in the current proposal, we take from MT to effect this change are, in my opinion, not at all suitable to stand in a narrative. This is Tolkien writing in his own modern, colloquial voice, and there's no way that he would have considered describing Melkor as "isolated in enemy territory" or "swallowing a bitter pill" in an actual rewrite of this story.

Now, yes, it's true that we have explicitly said that we are not to be concerned about stylistic inconsistencies within our text. But when we hashed that out, we were talking about the differing styles of narratives written over the course of Tolkien's life. The key example we dealt with early on was the juxtaposition between the very different styles of the Lost Tales and of stuff like the later 'Tuor'. I don't think that this in any way obligates us to treat the text of notes or analyses written in Tolkien's own 'external' voice as if they are real narratives.

So, that's my main objection - that as I see it, we simply don't have a text that is suitable for taking up this new element of the story - and in trying to force MT VI to fill that role, we end up doing great damage to the text.

Now, for many of the other projected changes in MT, as we've discussed, I think the intervention required to achieve the change is much less, and in those cases and many others, we've used the expedient of taking a minimal amount of wording from a note or analysis and inserting it into a text. In some cases, I've been a bit uneasy about how much manipulation of the text is needed, but of course it's hard to draw a clear line between what is acceptable and what is too much. But for me, the situation with this story of the feigned submission of Melkor is clearly on the "too much" side.

Does that help explain my view on this?

[Findegil]

Thank you very much for that explanation. Your reasons are now much clearer to me. And it has to me become clear that the first answer to your concerns can only be a text that demonstrates that we can take the story line of MT IV without introducing its ‘outside voice character’. It clear that this text is still questionable since it will involve a lot of ‘fragmenting’ textual changes and probably some switching the sense of the actual words.
That said, I still think that we should in some way present the more analytical parts of MT IV to our (imagined) readers. But if that finds approval by the group and how and where (most probably in volume 3) is quiet an independent question.

Okay, that is what the following text tries to do. Since I wished on the one hand to have documented where I skipped part of the MT IV that was included before and none the less show how much more storytelling the text has become I provide here under a clean text version:

Then shouted all the people of Valinor: ‘I-Eldar tulier - the Eldar have come’ - and it was not until that hour that the {Gods}[Valar] knew that their joy had contained a flaw, or that they had waited in hunger for its completion, but now they knew that the world had been an empty place beset with loneliness having no children for her own.> And the {Gods}[Valar] rejoiced, and yet were in doubt amid their mirth, and they debated what counsel it were best now to take to guard the Elves from the shadow of Melkor. At once Oromë returned to {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen], and he abode there long among the Elves, and aided them in the making of language; for that was their first work of craft upon Earth, and ever the dearest to their hearts, and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But> Manwë sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, and he sought the counsel of Ilúvatar. And coming then down to {Valmar}[Valimar] he called a conclave of the Great, and thither came even Ulmo from the Outer Sea.
And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should CE-SL-11.5b{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor, though Arda should receive yet more hurts in that strife> and at whatsoever cost{, and} deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife{.} CE-EX-28b<LT ; and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named CE-EX-28.2{therefore }tilkal,{[Footnote to the text: T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the {'magic'}[poetic] names of ordinary telpe and kulu.]} and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilkal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilkal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named {Angaino}[Angainor] CE-EX-28.4, the oppressor, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind for ever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft.
But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to {overcome}[fight] him by force{ or guile}, {and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.}> CE-EX-28.6<MT; VI as a {covering action or }diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence.>
{§21 }But now the Valar made ready …
…
…
{ 1099
§50 }It came to pass that at last CE-EX-37b <LT {There }in the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar {Ringil}[of Illuin] {they}[the Valar] came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly{ and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade Melko come forth}.> Thus the gates of Utumno were broken CE-EX-37.5{ and its halls unroofed}, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-EX-38 {a host of}<AAm, late scribbeld changes his> Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained <AAm, late scribbeld changes faithfull to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.>
CE-EX-39f CE-EX-38.1b<LT Then{ Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and} Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade {Melko}[Mekor] come forth.
But though deep down within those halls {Melko}[Melkor] heard him and was in doubt, he would still not come, but sent {Langon his}a servant and said by him that "Behold, he was rejoiced and in wonder to see the {Gods}[Valar] before his gates. Now would he gladly welcome them, yet for the poverty of his abode not more than two of them could he fitly entertain; and he begged that neither Manwë nor Tulkas be of the two, for the one merited and the other demanded hospitality of great cost and richness. Should this not be to their mind then would he fain hearken to Manwë's herald and learn what it were the {Gods}[Valar] so greatly desired that they must leave their soft couches and indolence of Valinor for the bleak places where {Melko}[Melkor] laboured humbly and did his toilsome work."
Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear from {Melko}[Melkor]'s words that he was awake and wary in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the {Gods}[Valar] he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how these twain may come upon him CE-EX-38.2 unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }"{ }or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4b<LT{Then}Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and {now}then they {follow}followed Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. Then said Manwë: "Behold, we have come and salute you here in your own halls; come now and be in Valinor." CE-EX-38.55{But Melko might not thus easily forgo his sport. "Nay first," said he, "wilt thou come Manwë and kneel before me, and after you all the Valar; but last shall come Tulkas and kiss my foot, for I have in mind something for which I owe Poldorea no great love." Now he purposed to spurn Tulkas in the mouth in payment of that buffet long ago}>CE-EX-38.6b <MT; VI Thus Manwë at last {faces}faced Melkor again, as he {has}had not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he {has}had now less personal force than Manwë, and {can}could no longer daunt him with his gaze.{
Either Manwë must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it.[Footnote to the text: One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', CE-EX-43bOrcs, Balrogs, etc. power of recuperation and multiplication. So that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power has gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.] As with all other characters there must be a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents - and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.}
CE-EX-38.7b Possibly {(and he thinks it possible) he}Melkor could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces {reassemble}reassembled. {So - as soon as he has mentally rejected repentance - he (just like Sauron afterwards on this model) makes a mockery of selfabasement and repentance. From which actually he gets a kind of perverted pleasure as in desecrating something holy – [for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.] He feigns remorse and repentance.} CE-EX-38.8b He actually {kneels}kneeled before Manwë and {surrenders}surrendered.{ - in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he fears would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he has the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he offers}He offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he {has}had done. It {is}was this offer which {seduces}seduced or {deludes}deluded Manwë{ - Manwë must be shown to have his own inherent fault (though not sin)[Footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]: he has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the status quo' - to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations}. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he {grants}granted Melkor's prayer.> CE-EX-38.9<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.>
CE-EX-38.91b<LQ {Nonetheless}Whoever the CE-SL-17b{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour. CE-EX-44b <LT Now Tulkas and Ulmo {break}broke the gates of {Utumna}[Utumno] and {pile}piled hills of stone upon them. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when {Melko}[Melkor] was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of {Melko}[Melkor] find their end.
After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to {Valmar}[Valimar] by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> CE-EX-44.5b
CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is }a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small{, lying bound} and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him {speaketh}spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violenceCE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!" Thereat arose}. And {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but {Melko}[Melkor] CE-SL-14writhed in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15{unchained Melko and }fought {him}Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.>CE-EX-39e <MT; VI
But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).{
Then he begins to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion - but he is now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He cannot. Therefore he swallows the bitter pill (but it greatly increases his hate, and he ever afterward accused Manwë of being faithless).}> CE-EX-47{and}And he was {bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and} led captive CE-SL-16b{; and the world had peace for a great age. Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
§22 But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor bound hand and foot and blindfold, and he was cast} into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for {seven [>}three{]} ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon CE-SL-18{.}<moved from above ; and the world had peace for a great age.>

Clean text:

Then shouted all the people of Valinor: ‘I-Eldar tulier - the Eldar have come’ - and it was not until that hour that the Valar knew that their joy had contained a flaw, or that they had waited in hunger for its completion, but now they knew that the world had been an empty place beset with loneliness having no children for her own. And the Valar rejoiced, and yet were in doubt amid their mirth, and they debated what counsel it were best now to take to guard the Elves from the shadow of Melkor. At once Oromë returned to Cuiviénen, and he abode there long among the Elves, and aided them in the making of language; for that was their first work of craft upon Earth, and ever the dearest to their hearts, and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But Manwë sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, and he sought the counsel of Ilúvatar. And coming then down to Valimar he called a conclave of the Great, and thither came even Ulmo from the Outer Sea.
And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should make war upon Melkor, though Arda should receive yet more hurts in that strife and at whatsoever cost deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife; and of the redes there spoken the Valar devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his power a seventh which he named tilkal, and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilkal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilkal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named Angainor, the oppressor, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind for ever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft.
But the desire of the Valar was to seek out Melkor with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to fight him by force, as a diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence.
But now the Valar made ready …
…
…
It came to pass that at last in the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar of Illuin the Valar came upon the huge gates of deep Utumno, and Melkor shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly. Thus the gates of Utumno were broken, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithfull to him, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.
Then Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade Mekor come forth.
But though deep down within those halls Melkor heard him and was in doubt, he would still not come, but sent a servant and said by him that "Behold, he was rejoiced and in wonder to see the Valar before his gates. Now would he gladly welcome them, yet for the poverty of his abode not more than two of them could he fitly entertain; and he begged that neither Manwë nor Tulkas be of the two, for the one merited and the other demanded hospitality of great cost and richness. Should this not be to their mind then would he fain hearken to Manwë's herald and learn what it were the Valar so greatly desired that they must leave their soft couches and indolence of Valinor for the bleak places where Melkor laboured humbly and did his toilsome work."
Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the Valar were exceeding wroth at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear from Melkor's words that he was awake and wary in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the Valar he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how these twain may come upon him unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig Melkor from his stronghold "or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.
Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, and then they followed Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat Melkor in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. Then said Manwë: "Behold, we have come and salute you here in your own halls; come now and be in Valinor." Thus Manwë at last faced Melkor again, as he had not done since he entered Arda. Both were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he had now less personal force than Manwë, and could no longer daunt him with his gaze. Possibly Melkor could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces reassembled. He actually kneeled before Manwë and surrendered. He offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he had done. It was this offer which seduced or deluded Manwë. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he granted Melkor's prayer. In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the Valar would at his bidding indeed have received Melkor into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.
Whoever the fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour. Now Tulkas and Ulmo broke the gates of Utumno and piled hills of stone upon them. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when Melkor was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of Melkor find their end.
After these things did the Valar return to Valimar by long ways and dark, guarding Melkor every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.
Now a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and Melkor arraigned before all the Valar great and small and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violence. And Kementári arose in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but Melkor writhed in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the Valar, yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have fought Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of Kementári, yet was it his thought that Melkor was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.
But at the council Melkor was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly did not tolerate this. Melkor was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress). And he was led captive into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for three ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon; and the world had peace for a great age.

Some comments to the changes I made:
CE-SL-11.5b: Here we acknowledge the fact from MT; IV that the Valar had no hope of real victory.
CE-EX-28b: I nominated this change b because I took up a bit more at the end. LT has here already Manwe’s reluctance to fight Melkor. Instead already this early in the writing history of Middle-Earth Tolkien establishes Manwe as seeking to ‘entreat’ Melkor to ‘better deeds’. It is interesting to see how Tolkien’s sometimes comes back to such idea’s in full circle.
CE-EX-28.2: I introduce this marker to nominate our discussion about the name ‘tilkal.’ ‘Vorotemnar’ and ‘Ilterendi’.
CE-EX-28.4: I introduce this marker to nominate our discussion about the names ‘Vorotemnar’ and ‘Ilterendi’.
CE-EX-28.6: This is the only part of MT; VI I actually used here. It does introduce the motive to fight that we need after we made clear that the Valar did not hope for real victory.
CE-EX-37b: I shifted the integration here a bit, therefore the b. Specially at the end I wove the passages a bit more fluent into on another. As it stands now Orome opens the gates, Melkor sends out his Balrogs and only after the Valar had fought that onslaught down Manwe calls Melkor who is now attested to be alone to come out.
CE-EX-37.5: I think we have to change this, since later we took up that Tulkas and Ulmo broke the gates and piled rock on them but that the caverns where not utterly destroyed.
CE-EX-38: These changes are generally accepted, I think.
CE-EX-39f: I left this maker in the text, since here in earlier version we had big parts of MT; VI introduced, but in this version I left it out.
CE-EX-38.1b: We already decided to leave out the guile the Valar used to bring Tulkas and Manwe into Melkor’s chamber, but the exchange via the servant I used to trigger the Valar to lay down their weapons and go in for negotiation.
CE-EX-38.2: I left that marker because in the last version we skipped ‘unawares’, but here it fits in well.
CE-EX-38.3: As mentioned above we did not include this ‘cunning deceit’.
CE-EX-38.4b: I changed ‘Then’ to ‘Therefore’ to use the lay down of the weapons instead of the ‘cunning deceit’ from LT.
CE-EX-38.55: As my text stands at this point Manwe has introduced Melkor to come with him to Valinor as it seems without any prerequisite. But I think from the new developed context it is clear enough that this offer is one for cooperation in consensus. I skipped the rest of the conversation since if we follow MT; VI Manwe and Melkor in this moment when they face each other in person must have understood who was now ‘in command’. And that is what I let follow here:
CE-EX-38.6b: He start the parts of MT’; VI that I found necessary. But I tried to strip that passages of as much text as possible. Thus, giving us a chance to use it full size later on and reduce the essay character it has. The first used scene is that of Manwe and Melkor perceiving the decrease of Melkor.
CE-EX-38.7b: The second motive I found necessary is that of possibility of the humiliation and chaining of Melkor. By the changes I introduced I tried to avoid the out side point of view that is used in MT; VI to explain the motives of Melkor and Manwe.
CE-EX-38.8b: The third scene used here is that of Melkor’s (feigned) surrender and Manwe’s granting it. But again, I removed the analyses of the motives. In that way the reader is left as unclear as Manwe if the repentance is real or feigned.
CE-EX-38.9: This passage from LT fits very well to explain Manwe’s motives at least a bit, and since it comes from a source that is everything but an essay, I don’t see that Aiwendil’s objection against the majority of the MT; VI stuff could be applied to it.
CE-EX-38.91b: I found the ‘Nonetheless’ not really fitting here.
CE-SL-17b: In the older versions we had only changed the text here from singular to plural and skipped the name of Utumno. But I thought, it might be better to introduce the name of Angband here, as it makes clear that there was a difference between what the Valar made at Angband to how they ‘sealed’ Utumno.
CE-EX-44b: Here we tell the sealing of Utumno.
CE-EX-44.5: I left that maker in because it marks a place where text of MT; V had been in other versions.
CE-EX-45 & CE-EX-46: These are unchanged.
CE-SL-14: I came back here to the original text, following Aiwendil’s arguments.
CE-SL-15: It is clear, that this passage has to follow what ever we decided about Melkor being chained in Utumno.
CE-EX-39e: If we introduce MT; VI with the (feigned) repentance of Melkor we need that passage, since it makes clear that Manwe’s was in a way overruled by the Valar in assembly during that court. But again, I remove the analyses of Melkors motives as they are clearly from an outside view point.
CE-EX-47 & CE-SL-16b & CE-SL-18: These are unchanged from the last version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

It's a well-worn refrain by this point, but once again, I'm sorry I haven't been around in a while.

If Findegil or anyone else is still around, I'm going to make an effort to get back to work on this. My general feeling after reading the last proposal is that I still don't find it satisfactory, but I will try to re-read it and identify my objections more specifically.

[Findegil]

Hi Aiwendil,

nice to read from you again! Yes, I am still here to discuse what so ever specific critisem you can bring forward.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

All right, here are my comments on the latest proposal.

CE-SL-11.5b: I gather that the point of this is to remove mention of "taking up again the mastery of Arda" to bring this in line with MT VI, but it introduces a redundancy, since the Valar's trepidation about the hurts they will cause to Arda is then mentioned twice. Also, the editing of Manwe's speech makes him repeat "Melkor" unnecessarily. If we do edit this to agree with MT, I think better would be:

that we should CE-SL-11.5b{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows{ of Melkor}.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife{.}

CE-EX-28b: Here you (rather cleverly) try to use material from <b>LT</b> to narrate the story outlined in <b>MT</b>. But one must be careful! There is a superficial similarity between the statement from <b>LT</b> and the story in <b>MT</b>, but there is also a critical difference: In <b>LT</b>, where Melkor has been a bit more of a Loki-esque figure than the great evil he later became, the Valar decide to try to treat with him before they go to war - for they have a reasonable expectation that he might listen to them. In <b>MT</b>, there is no suggestion that this possibility occurs to them until after the war, when Melkor pleads for mercy on his own initiative. In the later Legendarium, it is hard to believe that the Valar could think they could "entreat him to better deeds" as if he were a wayward schoolboy. So I'm sorry to say I don't think this works, and I don't think it successfully enacts the story outlined in <b>MT</b>.

CE-EX-28.2: I'm still unsure about "tilkal". Even if we accept tambe, latuken, ilsa, and kanu (and I have doubts about the phonology of latuken and ilsa in later Quenya), laure, I'm pretty sure, only refers to the colour, not the metal after the Lost Tales. But I'd need to refresh myself on Quenya, or consult someone more knowledgeable, to be sure.

Again, though, I don't see a problem with the word "magic" here.

CE-EX-28.4: I think that Vorotemnar and Ilterindi are fine in later Quenya, though again, my Quenya knowledge is very rusty.

CE-EX-28.6: I still feel that the language here is very much that of an analytical note by Tolkien, not a narrative. You rightly remove "covering action", but "sphere of influence" still grates. However, I'm not sure that this addition is needed for the purpose you use it for - already above, we say that they wish to make war upon Melkor "and deliver the Quendi from the shadows" (of Melkor). So I suggest that even if we are taking up this part of the <b>MT</b> story, we do not actually need this addition.

CE-EX-37b: There is still confusion here caused by merging the LT and AAm stories. In the latter, and in our text, it is told that the siege lasts for years. In AAm this is followed by the statement that at last the gates of Utumno were broken. In the proposal here, however, it's followed by the statement from LT that the Valar came to the gates of Utumno and Melkor shut them before their faces. In LT, this describes the beginning of an altogether far shorter battle, but it rings very odd here. I suppose one could posit that in all the war up to this point, the Valar had never actually come close enough to the gates that Orome's horn could have blasted them open, but this seems like quite a stretch to me, especially since AAm specifically locates the fighting before the gates of Utumno. As nice and vivid as the LT imagery is, I still think it has to go in this instance.

CE-EX-37.5: The statement that the halls are unroofed is from AAm, whereas unless I'm mistaken the description of Tulkas and Ulmo breaking the gates but not utterly destroying the caverns is from LT. If there's a contradiction, then, the halls being unroofed has to take precedence.

CE-EX-38.1b and following: The addition from LT is, I gather, intended to help achieve the story of MT VI. But the character of the interaction between Melkor and the Valar here is quite different from anything in the later sources, and I don't think that it quite works. In LT (and CE-EX-38.1b), Melko somewhat comically speaks to the Valar as if they were friends he was inviting to tea, and this kind of fairy-tale naive guile doesn't at all fit with the later conception of Melkor, much less with that in MT. But more importantly, this doesn't actually do anything to achieve the story in MT VI, for there Melkor's deception is one of feigned repentance and abasement, not feigned congeniality.

In LT, the Valar then decide that they cannot overcome Melkor by force (which you have edited out here) and therefore they pretend to accept his "fawning insolence" in order to come at him unawares, even to the point of saying they have come to salute him. This, too, is gone in the later sources and nothing in MT suggests that it was resurrected.

CE-EX-38.6b and following: As I've argued above, I think the LT material doesn't actually do anything to establish the story from MT, which means that these insertions are doing all the work. And I'm afraid they still simply don't read as narrative to me. The first part (38.6b) is less problematic, but the rest (38.7b, 38.8b) is very much in the voice of Tolkien making notes for himself, not that of a narrative - on top of which the many (necessary) deletions make it read somewhat oddly. 38.9 is certainly fine narrative prose, and in fact of all the LT additions so far is the only one that seems to me to go some way toward telling the story Tolkien outlined in MT VI - but it is not enough.

CE-EX-45, -39e: Again, the distant, analytical writing of MT VI is very jarring against the vivid narrative of LT. But I don't think this is as problematic as the section at CE-EX-38.1b.

Those are my specific reactions to the current proposal - but to step back slightly, my view of this is that I don't really see the value in going to heroic lengths to adopt the story as projected in MT VI, when it requires such drastic interventions in the text and - even in the best case - results in a text that is stylistically and tonally incoherent. I don't see that we have any obligation to follow MT in places where it radically departs from the story of LQ, AAm, and other late texts.

I'm sorry to return from such a long hiatus with such an argumentative post! I hope you're doing well - I heard from a friend who lives in Germany that COVID was pretty bad there for a while; I hope your friends and family are safe and healthy.