Morgoth once had a army of corrupted maiar?

[Mithadan]

Boldog, as a name at least, appears early on as a great captain of the Orcs, if I recall. I just finished both Beren and Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin and I took note of a mention that Boldog was slain. If I had to guess based upon memory, I would say it was in the Lay of Leithien.

It is not clear that the breeding of Orcs began after the fall of Utumno. This would mean that the task was left in other hands (Sauron perhaps) or that the breeding began after Morgoth returned to Angband, leaving too little time, in my opinion, to create the armies described in the Silmarillion. Because the corruption of Orcs (and I will not be dragged into the Elves/Men/Beasts discussion) is clearly attributed to Morgoth, I would guess that the breeding program at least began while he was still in Utumno.

While Maiar were clearly recruited by Morgoth, their numbers are not clear. Certainly the Balrogs (hundreds per the Lay of Leithien, seven per later notes), and probably all speaking monsters including dragons, Draugluin and Carcharoth.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Boldog, as a name at least, appears early on as a great captain of the Orcs, if I recall. I just finished both Beren and Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin and I took note of a mention that Boldog was slain. If I had to guess based upon memory, I would say it was in the Lay of Leithien.

It is not clear that the breeding of Orcs began after the fall of Utumno. This would mean that the task was left in other hands (Sauron perhaps) or that the breeding began after Morgoth returned to Angband, leaving too little time, in my opinion, to create the armies described in the Silmarillion. Because the corruption of Orcs (and I will not be dragged into the Elves/Men/Beasts discussion) is clearly attributed to Morgoth, I would guess that the breeding program at least began while he was still in Utumno.

While Maiar were clearly recruited by Morgoth, their numbers are not clear. Certainly the Balrogs (hundreds per the Lay of Leithien, seven per later notes), and probably all speaking monsters including dragons, Draugluin and Carcharoth.

As with all things Tolkien, he is variable and obscurant (and probably by design).

Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great as Sauron, or less as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive Orcs (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs... (Author's note to text, Chapter 5: "Myths transformed")

This statement by Tolkien aligns with the other matter Huinesoron quoted:

Some of these things may have been delusions and phantoms but some were no doubt shapes taken by the servants of Melkor, mocking and degrading the very forms of the children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of Maiar, who had the power, as their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in Arda.('Morgoth's Ring', Chapter 5: "Myths transformed")

Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs. (Author's footnote to the text, Chapter 5: "Myths transformed")

But per usual, Tolkien relies more on inference than direct declarative statements. "Could have been", May have been", "But it is possible" -- one never gets a straight answer. And that's what makes Tolkien lore so intriguing. Conjecture is interwoven with historical background throughout the lore.

[Galadriel55]

Never go to Tolkien for council, for he will say both no and yes.

But my (much less scholarly) opinion is that if Elves served as the prototype for orcs, whether directly or as a "model" for a different clay, the corruption could have started as early as in Utumno. I recall that Morgoth's servants would pose as Orome and kill/kidnap stray Elves - and who is to say that he didn't kidnap them for his experiments, amongst other purposes?

[Galin]

I'd like to add that as far as timing is concerned, Tolkien need not be constrained by the events and timeline of the 1977 constructed Silmarillion. For example, he's shifting the Awakening of Men back in time to account for the breeding of "regular" orcs from Men while Melkor was in Aman (text 10) -- [pushing it back even more than 3500 Sun Years according to CJRT, if the Awakening of Men is placed even very late in the period of the Great March of the Eldar]

Orc-formed Maiar can account for some early "real" orcs (not delusions). Utumno was broken in Valian Year 1099, so roughly four hundred Valian years elapsed before Morgoth made his first assault on Beleriand in 1497.

And Tolkien here notes (again, text 10) that the breeding of Orcs had already begun before Morgoth was made captive.

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Boldog, as a name at least, appears early on as a great captain of the Orcs, if I recall. I just finished both Beren and Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin and I took note of a mention that Boldog was slain. If I had to guess based upon memory, I would say it was in the Lay of Leithien.

It is not clear that the breeding of Orcs began after the fall of Utumno. This would mean that the task was left in other hands (Sauron perhaps) or that the breeding began after Morgoth returned to Angband, leaving too little time, in my opinion, to create the armies described in the Silmarillion. Because the corruption of Orcs (and I will not be dragged into the Elves/Men/Beasts discussion) is clearly attributed to Morgoth, I would guess that the breeding program at least began while he was still in Utumno.

While Maiar were clearly recruited by Morgoth, their numbers are not clear. Certainly the Balrogs (hundreds per the Lay of Leithien, seven per later notes), and probably all speaking monsters including dragons, Draugluin and Carcharoth.

So he did have orcs, both from corrupting elves he captured and evil maiar shape-shifting into leading orc generals. He made Ents into trolls, and many evil spirits such has phantoms and wraiths. The phantoms and wraiths surely must be maiar in a twisted spiritual form? Also, I would like to think some of these Nameless Things monsters could be corrupted maiar as well. Maybe some ancient creatures we never seen before but was wiped out when Utumno was destroyed. The few remnants escaped down to the earth.

[mhagain]

Well yes... And no.

"Maiar" isn't a taxonomic classification; it just signifies Ainur who went into the world but not including the 15 most powerful. So any claim that a particular individual is a Maia must of necessity imply that this individual existed before the world and took part in the Music.

That Melkor did corrupt many of the Maiar is beyond question, but on the other hand Tolkien all but shouts from the rooftops that there were other spirits in Ea, presumably created during the Music by both Eru and the Ainur, and there's a very clear reference to these in the Silmarillion:

Therefore he gathered to himself spirits out of the halls of Eä that he had perverted to his service, and he deemed himself strong. And seeing now his time he drew near again to Arda, and looked down upon it, and the beauty of the Earth in its Spring filled him the more with hate.

Make particular note of the phrase "looked down" here, because that's evidence that Ungoliant is one of those spirits:

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë...

That everything not otherwise classified must be a Maia is something that, I believe, comes from David Day, so that's probably a good indication of how seriously to treat it.

[Galin]

Pedantry alert! Even three, or at most seven ever existing, according to that Balrog note.

I wonder about a possible compromise with "many" rogs existing before Utmno was broken, and . . . maybe five (?) left at the time of Curufinwe's fall and the later fall of Gondolin -- then three for the Wrathy War -- and one left before the Company arrived in Moria.

Or something else (maybe start with 7 surviving Utumno, leaving more rogs left for the WoW).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The question arises, what were the "dreadful spirits" that animated the werewolves?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The question arises, what were the "dreadful spirits" that animated the werewolves?

Not all spirits are Ainu or Eruhini. The description of Creation somehow skips quickly over the flora and fauna and other things "not quite human". Animals are spirits - both normal animals, and the not so normal ones. There are Eagles, who seem to be powerful creatures above the animal kingdom, serving the good cause. Why not have other powerful "animal-like" spirits, in the form of wolves, who serve the evil cause? There are animal-like creatures with who knows what spirits and minds, who came who knows whence, like the Watcher in the Water and whatever self-serving mysterious things Gandalf saw in the depths of Moria. Dragons and Fell Beasts, which were bred - but 1) from what and 2) are intelligent beings. There are tree spirits - Ents, Huorns, Old Man Willows - even regular trees can "talk". There are completely baffling and purposefully unexplained spirits in blue jackets and yellow boots. And doubtless there are spirits for which no standard shape can be defined.

Werewolves are just a subset of spirits (minds? existences? consciousnesses?) that inhabit Middle-earth. Some are more powerful than others. Some serve good, some serve evil, some serve no one in particular. Are they all rogue Ainu? We know at least some are not, and given that there were only 7 Balrogs this would be a staggering number of rogue Maiar unaccounted for.

If I had to commit to an explanation, I would put the undefined spirits as clumps of "concentrated creation" - not totally free spirits as true Eruhini, spirits who are perhaps more tied to the world around them - maybe who are an expression of the world around them. Does the Ent create the forest, or the forest creates the Ent? There is absolutely no evidence to this view as opposed to others. I simply prefer Middle-earth with supernatural as part of the natural, a world where all sorts of unexplained creatures can co-exist without contradicting the rule of uniqueness of Eruhini in Creation. I prefer a world where Barazinbar really does rise in vengeful anger against travelers, and it's not just a quirk of weather patterns. I think it's more fun that way.

Interestingly, sticking with that line of thought, that still leaves Orcs in the same dimension as Elves and Men. Creatures that kinda fend for themselves, are not attached to any particular element of the world, are free to choose their path. By the nature of their corruption they were made incompatible with the sunlight, and by a long history of wars they became soldiers and bandits. But they are technically still capable of organization, and of sympathy - and I even wanna say that they could hypothetically be capable of kindness... maybe. Maybe not. They are certainly capable of friendship, but so far as we know selfishness always trumped all the seedlings of good qualities.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

One might also consider, based on some passages in Morgoth's Ring, the role of corrupted Elvish fear- whether those of Avari who had already turned to the Darkness before death, or those souls which refused the summons to Mandos. Tolkien treats these as malign "spirits" haunting the shadows, with whom the living should never have ado (those who do so are "the necromancers, and of the train of Sauron.") Could not some of these 'powered' the werewolves?