Would the remaining elvish strongholds help Eomer and his exile riders?

[Boromir88]

I agree with G55, at the time you're referring to, whether it's book-Eomer or movie-Eomer, I don't think there's a reason Eomer would seek out the Elves for aid.

Granted, I can't think of a movie reason, because it's not something that's addressed. Even though it's a pretty big plot hole, because after meeting with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli near Fangorn (I believe that's where it is in the movies), Eomer says "We ride north." So, presumably they passed Lorien, considering Haldir's elves show up to Helm's Deep before Eomer's Rohirrim? Trying to unravel Jackson's plot holes will give me a headache though.

As for more book reasons, why it would most likely be Gondor, Eomer would go. Eomer mentions having seen Boromir once before and was saddened to learn of his death. Also his mother, Theodwyn (Theoden's sister) had ties to Gondor. Their parents were Thengel, who for a time lived in Gondor and married Morwen of Lossarnach.

[Huinesoron]

Someone said "if", and my ears pricked up...

The premise is that Eomer is banished from Rohan, and doesn't run into Aragorn et al on his way out. Perhaps Boromir tripped and fell off the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, so the entire Fellowship has headed east. Doesn't matter - all that matters is that they're not in Rohan.

If we're going to send him to meet the Elves, he's going to need a reason - and 'shelter and protection' doesn't cut it. Eomer isn't the type to run scared, so if he's leaving Rohan at all, it's either because a) he feels honour-bound to obey even an unjust command, or b) he has a plan to take the country back.

With that in mind, let's see if we can take him to see the Elves?

-Mirkwood: The easiest way to get Eomer into proximity with Mirkwood is to send him up Anduin to the old Éothéod. He's utterly convinced that he's failed his king, so he's straight-up leaving it all behind. He heads all the way to northern Mirkwood to reclaim the ancient capital of Framsburg and found a new kingdom.

If we assume the West doesn't fall in this scenario, and the Ring is still destroyed, then Eomer's new kingdom will be perfectly positioned to tap into the Mirkwood-Esgaroth-Dale trade route come the Fourth Age. All of those settlements were afflicted by the war, so a new, unbattered economy (especially one that may be able to supply dragon gold from the cold-wyrms of the Withered Heath, a la Fram) is going to do well. So he'll have a nice trade relationship with Thranduil.

He probably feels a bit guilty about the way Rohan was destroyed by Uruks, though. And I doubt War-Queen Eowyn will ever forgive him.

-Rivendell: This is the tricky one. How do we get Eomer to the House of Elrond? Well... let's send him earlier! While Boromir is riding through Rohan on his mission to take Faramir's dream to Imladris, his horse trips on a rock. Poor Boromir breaks both his legs, and Eomer (who was on rock-clearing duty that week) feels honour-bound to take up his quest on his behalf. Off he goes, and winds up at the Council of Elrond.

Let's say he joins the Fellowship, but ducks out before they enter Moria; we know he's kind of spooked by haunted caves. He probably justifies it as taking word to Theoden and Denethor. Unfortunately, by the time he arrives, Theoden is already well under Saruman's influence, and kicks him out.

Would he go all the way back to Rivendell? I think maybe - if he knew Saruman was involved. Taking word to the Wise that Saruman was in full Evil Overlord mode might have seemed like a good idea, especially if the Riders now believe Eomer abandoned them and so won't follow him anyway. Elrond, needless to say, would be happy to take him in, but wouldn't really do anything to help.

-Lorien: Far and away the easiest. "If the Wizard of the Ironstone Tower has ensorcelled our uncle," says Eowyn as Eomer prepares to leave, "then might not the Witch of Dwimordene restore him to his mind?"

Would Galadriel help? I think she'd be up for feeding and watering Eomer's band of adventurers, but she's not one to offer direct military aid. More likely she'd give him some words of wisdom, like "The voice of Saruman is a WORM that the TONGUES of Men should not repeat", in the hopes that he'd get the hint and go throw Grima off a cliff.

hS

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I agree with G55, at the time you're referring to, whether it's book-Eomer or movie-Eomer, I don't think there's a reason Eomer would seek out the Elves for aid.

Granted, I can't think of a movie reason, because it's not something that's addressed. Even though it's a pretty big plot hole, because after meeting with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli near Fangorn (I believe that's where it is in the movies), Eomer says "We ride north." So, presumably they passed Lorien, considering Haldir's elves show up to Helm's Deep before Eomer's Rohirrim? Trying to unravel Jackson's plot holes will give me a headache though.

As for more book reasons, why it would most likely be Gondor, Eomer would go. Eomer mentions having seen Boromir once before and was saddened to learn of his death. Also his mother, Theodwyn (Theoden's sister) had ties to Gondor. Their parents were Thengel, who for a time lived in Gondor and married Morwen of Lossarnach.

Why didn't Rohan and Gondor in the very late T.A have any contact with the elves, except for Lake Town with Thranduil.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Elves and Men had drifted apart in the three millennia since the Last Alliance. The Elves kept to themselves and thought it best that mortals and immortals not mingle (save in the house of the half-Elf Elrond); and Lorien in particular valued armed secrecy, a latter-day Doriath. Not that other Elves were much more outgoing; the behavior of the Wood-elves in The Hobbit would have been normal, not something specially cooked up for Thorin & Co. While the interests of commerce did generate contact (the raft-Elves' trade with Lake-town), note that the Elves visited Esgaroth but not, apparently, vice-versa; Men were not welcome within Thranduil's borders.

And Men, naturally, were suspicious of that which they did not understand and thought alien, hence the superstitious dread exhibited by the Rohirrim. Men of Gondor, or at least the upper classes, would not have been so narrow-minded; but it's clear from Boromir's dream/mission and Denethor's advice that neither knew anything even of Rivendell save as a legendary Shangri-la somewhere in the North. It's fair to say that their attitude would have been one of superstitious awe rather than superstitious dread.

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Elves and Men had drifted apart in the three millennia since the Last Alliance. The Elves kept to themselves and thought it best that mortals and immortals not mingle (save in the house of the half-Elf Elrond); and Lorien in particular valued armed secrecy, a latter-day Doriath. Not that other Elves were much more outgoing; the behavior of the Wood-elves in The Hobbit would have been normal, not something specially cooked up for Thorin & Co. While the interests of commerce did generate contact (the raft-Elves' trade with Lake-town), note that the Elves visited Esgaroth but not, apparently, vice-versa; Men were not welcome within Thranduil's borders.

And Men, naturally, were suspicious of that which they did not understand and thought alien, hence the superstitious dread exhibited by the Rohirrim. Men of Gondor, or at least the upper classes, would not have been so narrow-minded; but it's clear from Boromir's dream/mission and Denethor's advice that neither knew anything even of Rivendell save as a legendary Shangri-la somewhere in the North. It's fair to say that their attitude would have been one of superstitious awe rather than superstitious dread.

Could the loss of the king of Gondor, Earnur and the destruction of Arnor, be one of the main reasons why men and elves drifted away from each other?

[Victariongreyjoy]

I read that Rohan's ancestor, the Northmen of Rhovanion, helped the host of the west against the final assault of Angmar. So in the early period of the third age, middle-men were used to seeing elves I suppose?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Could the loss of the king of Gondor, Earnur and the destruction of Arnor, be one of the main reasons why men and elves drifted away from each other?

Definitely, it's a related topic if not definitively--and the last recorded Elf/Gondorian encounter was Eärnur's conversation with Glorfindel when Gondor's fleet showed up too late save Arthedain.

Eriador, far more so than the lands about the Bay of Belfalas, had some intermingling of Elves and Men. We don't know for sure how much intercourse the Elves and Arnor had, but we know there was SOME--and after the fall of Arthedain, the Rangers continue it (and it's possible this was an increase from before). Rivendell, Eregion, and Lindon all directly border Arnor and Gildor's company is proof of Elves tromping around in the heart of Arnor.

Gondor, on the other hand, was never much populated in Calenardhon, its closest land bordering Lórien or Mirkwood, and there is a gap even there. It DID have Elves still using the havens of Dol Amroth at least until its titular king sailed from there, but all these Elves--Mirkwood, Lórien, and Amroth--are Silvan Elves, while the Elves of Eriador were chiefly a Beleriandic mix of Noldor/Sindar. As much as we talk about the superstitions of Men regarding the Elves, there does seem to be a bit of a reverse case amongst the Elves: if the Dúnedain are the Men who lean closest to the Elves, the Noldor/Sindar equally lean closer to involvement with Men than the Silvan Elves, whose attitude is to ignore them more completely.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Rivendell, Eregion, and Lindon all directly border Arnor

Eregion was long, long gone by the time Arnor was founded. Destroyed ca. SA 1600.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Eregion was long, long gone by the time Arnor was founded. Destroyed ca. SA 1600.

Okay, fair enough in terms of Eregion having a direct impact on Arnor--there obviously wasn't time travelling commerce between the two. But even desolate, Hollin *is* one of the countries that directly bordered Arnor, and it's not as if anyone else lived there in the 3rd Age to displace the Elvish associations of the region (as could be argued with the Silvan colony on the Bay of Belfalas)--and though Eregion by itself proves pretty much nothing, it is a bit of extra weight in the bucket of the argument I was making: Eriador was Elf country (and Elves who would interact with humans) in a ways the lands about the White Mountains were not.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Why didn't Rohan and Gondor in the very late T.A have any contacts with the elves, except for Lake Town with Thranduil.

William Cloud Hicklin has covered the main reason, but I think another is that we all tend to think of Gondor in terms of Minas Tirith. That's actually almost completely wrong: Gondor really consists of a wide country with multiple cities south of the White Mountains, plus a couple of forts north of them. It's only the fact that one of those forts is the City of the Kings that makes them relevant at all. They don't trade north, because their whole kingdom is oriented to the south.

Tolkien understandably didn't talk much about trade routes, but the main commercial highway for Gondor has to be Anduin. Goods from the countryside are shipped down the Seven Rivers to Anduin, then up or down to Pelargir, Dol Amroth, or Minas Tirith. Goods from Harad (in the days when those trade routes were open) arrive by ship to Dol Amroth or Pelargir. Goods from Rohan come in to Minas Tirith, and are then sent south by river (and I would bet the Rohirrim travel to Mundburg, rather than Gondor sending traders to the Riddermark). Everything is focussed on Anduin. There simply isn't the capacity to send trade caravans north overland to Mirkwood - nor much need, since as far as we know the only thing Thranduil imported was food and drink, and he could get those cheaper from the Lake-Men.

hS