Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, discussion thread

[Thinlómien]

Nog, I think you can just decide the remaining rules and everyone will just be happy to roll with it.

[Nogrod]

So here we are.


22 players.


1 Seer
1 Ranger
1 Hunter

+

5 Infectors

+

1 Innocent Child
1 Cobbler

+

12 Innocent (healthy) Villagers


Thinking behind this:

Innocent Child and Cobbler kind of "cancel each other out" (in the end they can benefit either side but their purpose is to benefit opposite sides)

That would leave a ratio of 5:20 aka. 1:4.

Interpolate that and it means the same as 3 wolves in a 12 player game or 4 wolves in a 16 player game. That's a wee-little bit heavy ratio from the villagers POV, but then again the QT might actually help the innocents in the later stages of the game, so I'd say that's just the right ratio.


I'm now going to check everything and then go randomizing the lists in my favorite random.org. -site. Whether it is true or whatever it means, I just love their description of what they do on their website: "The randomness comes from atmospheric noise, which for many purposes is better than the pseudo-random number algorithms typically used in computer programs".

So you are being exposed to atmospheric noise!

[Nogrod]

I have made yet some additions to the rules, basically victory conditions and rules for special roles (including the revelation of which characters are in which role).

It should be there now. Notify me if I have forgotten something.


I thought it decent to notify everyone of their role, so I'll still write a message to the innocent (heatlhy) Villagers and start then dealing the PM's to everyone. So even the innocents will receive a personal PM of their role and some might get one already before the Night1 officially begins.

Starting of Night1 is signalled by a N1 narration appearing to the Game Thread.


See you all in-game in about 24 hours and 45 minutes!

Those with special roles, do not hesitate to contact me if you have anything to ask.

[Nogrod]

All the roles should be dealt now!

If you haven't gotten a PM from me, please do PM me back about it.

It's Night1 now.


So,

Infectors, do start your scheming together. As you know full well, there will be no pick toNight, but get yourselves ready for the game.

Seer: PM me your first dream at 8PM GMT/UTC tomorrow the latest.

Hunter: you may give me a name you'll hunt already during the Night but there's no rush for it. I need one only before Day1 ends, so take your time.

All others, try to sleep well. The troubles are ahead, not yet here and now.

[Inziladun]

A friendly reminder to all that Invisible Mode is strongly advised.

[Galadriel55]

Not sure if this has been said but I didn't see it reading over the rules post: is the Hunter logical? And can the Ranger self-protect or protect people twice in a row?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Not sure if this has been said but I didn't see it reading over the rules post: is the Hunter logical? And can the Ranger self-protect or protect people twice in a row?

It seems I haven't written that stuff to anyone else but the gifteds themselves. Let me elaborate those in a moment (just now in a bit of a hurry).

[Nogrod]

Ok. I added the following rules to the Rules-Post.

- The Seer learns all the roles.

- The Ranger can’t protect the same person two Nights in a row and can’t protect himself.

- If the Hunter is targeted by Night he will fight and attack whomever he has chosen to hunt (so he's the "illogical hunter") – both will be turned into the QT in the morning. If the Hunter is voted to be quarantined at the end of a Day, he will take with him anyone he has chosen, whoever that is.


NB: THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE TO THE HUNTER ROLE (My bad, I remembered the traditional role incorrectly.)

[Nogrod]

Just wanted to share my weird feelings.

A couple of years ago I wouldn't have predicted we're playing Werewolf again, especially with this huge a Village. Then again I wouldn't have predicted a global pandemic that would derail the everyday life for all of us on this level either.

But maybe it is exactly like this: when we face adversities, we find new and old ways to confirm our togetherness, and well, seek and find comfort with other people amidst agonies of many sorts.

And all this reminds me of the quote by Mr. Martin Luther King Jr. “We may have all come on different ships, but we’re in the same boat now.”

So let's all enjoy this boat ride we're starting together in a moment!

Delve into the game, think, speak, communicate... Have fun with all the wonderful people sharing this adventure with you!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Just wanted to share my weird feelings.

A couple of years ago I wouldn't have predicted we're playing Werewolf again, especially with this huge a Village. Then again I wouldn't have predicted a global pandemic that would derail the everyday life for all of us on this level either.

But maybe it is exactly like this: when we face adversities, we find new and old ways to confirm our togetherness, and well, seek and find comfort with other people amidst agonies of many sorts.

And all this reminds me of the quote by Mr. Martin Luther King Jr. “We may have all come on different ships, but we’re in the same boat now.”

So let's all enjoy this boat ride we're starting together in a moment!

Delve into the game, think, speak, communicate... Have fun with all the wonderful people sharing this adventure with you!

<3 <3 <3 Thank you for making this possible and enjoy watching us squabble!

[Nogrod]

I've changed my mind about the QT. It will be open for discussion also during the Nights. Limiting the discussion there to Daytime felt quite artificial.

[Boromir88]

Seconded, thank you Nog for starting a game.

I actually hope there’s enough interest and time for another one! Although here in the US, things are starting to open back up. I guess we’ll see what time allows and only enjoy this game going on in the present.

[Nogrod]

I suggest we should have the discussion in this “Discussion Thread”, but whatever and where-ever. Let’s try to keep it in one Thread anyway.

I suggest this one.

[Boromir88]

Never underestimate a final wolf, cornered and seeing no path to victory. Given there was no way to escape, figured it would be ok to skip the formality and what would have been anti-climatic waiting for the QT to confirm Brinn's dream (if I had killed her). So, decided to deprive you nasty villagers of your Innocent children and have NogMod end it on a final marvelous narration.

Major kudos to Brinn on a fine game, when you figure the infectors played really well during the day turns.

I'm sure there will be a lot of reveals of what went on "behind the scenes" and will post some of my messages here. Around Night 2 or 3 Lhuna asked what innocents were I going to ally myself with. I chose Lommy I feel I have a good read on and figured ordo from Day 1 (although now I'm going to have to avoid the punches and pots and pans *ducks*) and Brinn because I thought I could sell that G55 and Huey were messing with us with their QT votes. Which was the ultimate downfall, because there an infector was protecting the seer from the very beginning and Brinn's refusal to reveal, despite all the tricks we were throwing out there. Well done. The night that it was just Kath and myself, Kath had mentioned Brinn as possibly the seer as well as Greenie, but really none of us expected you to being the seer.

And to Eonwe, for being a major pain in the neck. I think we're all a little bit rusty, because I was so worried about that obvious slip Lalaith spotted and Pitch and Eonwe picked up.

At one point we all had our stabs at who the seer was.

Rikae and Kitanna were Lhuna and me
Legate was for Huey
Lalaith was me (thinking she caught my slip and earlier her frustration at those discussing went when Kit revealed)
Pitch was the Ka
Shasta was Kath's "head." Her gut said Brinn or Greenie

Now I have the QT to read and keep me entertained for days as I try to figure out how the heck was I considered/thought to be the seer.

[Nogrod]

Just first thoughts: a crazy and wonderful game everyone!

That was worthy of a "Return of the Werewolf to the 'Downs"!

[Inziladun]

An absolutely amazing game; well-plotted, and very well attended.

The wolves and Gifteds, from my perspective, did a good job hiding.
As usual, I wasn't right about a great deal, but it's still always a good time.

[Inziladun]

And if someone happens to ask me "what's that Werewolf game about, anyway?" I'm pointing them here.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Now I have the QT to read and keep me entertained for days as I try to figure out how the heck was I considered/thought to be the seer.

I have more or less read it - and the Game Thread too - and it is still a mystery to me, where did that idea come from?

I mean at one time there was nothing of the sort and when I checked in the next time it was already "yesterday's news" in both threads.

[Pitchwife]

*reads narration*
...
...
...
...
...
*applauds*

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I have more or less read it - and the Game Thread too - and it is still a mystery to me, where did that idea come from?

I mean at one time there was nothing of the sort and when I checked in the next time it was already "yesterday's news" in both threads.

As far as I know it was Mac who came up with it, you'll have to ask him. I didn't get it either.


FWIW I called Borowolf and Ordo Son of Bjarne yesterDay on nothing but gut feeling, so this is quite satisfying.


And Eönwë: Sorry!

[Thinlómien]

It was an amazing game, absolutely crazy, so many of us innocents were wrong so many times but still we won because the wolves were equally bad at spotting the seer... great.

Sally, I'm so sorry. But the hunter really IS more fun when she gets to kill somebody, whatever the consequences.

Brinn, thanks again for saving the game for us, also amazing job saying hidden. To be picked on by the dead thread like that and still survive without revealing!

Boro, well *threateningly waves the pots and pans* I might be really mad but I am not because I figured it had to be you after Brinn revealed - you didn't really succeed in feigning enthusiasm nor had you replied anything reassuring to my speculations on your innocence the Day before, and besides I was convinced Rune and Lottie were innocent. I said I won't forgive you if you're a wolf, but given that you lost and we won, I'm feeling magnanimous so I might. Anyway, well played and a very gracious way to end it! I am pretty awed by your galaxy brain level scheming in this game.

Now I really want to read the QT but - as most of you probably know - I live with Legate and he has been constantly laughing aloud while reading the thread (while obviously never telling me what's so funny), so I'm a little terrified...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

FWIW I called Borowolf and Ordo Son of Bjarne yesterDay on nothing but gut feeling, so this is quite satisfying.

I am not sure I care for this new nickname.

I wasn't ordinary, I was outright abysmal.

[Huinesoron]

Nog, the narrations have been spectacular throughout, and this was a perfect endnote.

Brinn - you were incredible! I know I remember a few QT-wolf 'haha what if Brinn is the Seer' moments, but I don't think I ever seriously suspected you. That was a virtuoso performance. (But - arrrgh! If I'd only voted the other way on Day 1, this would have been a totally different game!)

Team Infector - sorry for dying on you so soon! It made for a much less stressful game for me, chilling with the Cobbler I. The QT-bar, but I would probably have been more help among the living.

The best part of the game, at least from my side, was the day or two when the QT was emphatically convinced BoroWolf was the Seer...

I know Team Wolf have planned all along to release our night-chats; Boro, as Last Wolf Standing are you okay with your chat being published? I should be able to get stable versions of both up pretty quickly.

Great game, everyone! Even if I spent half of it with the Cutiennocents studiously ignoring me.

hS

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Just first thoughts: a crazy and wonderful game everyone!

That was worthy of a "Return of the Werewolf to the 'Downs"!

Hear, hear! And thanks for bringing it to us in such a beautiful package! *bows*

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I have more or less read it - and the Game Thread too - and it is still a mystery to me, where did that idea come from?

I mean at one time there was nothing of the sort and when I checked in the next time it was already "yesterday's news" in both threads.

At least on the Cuties thread, I blame Mac.

But it fit well with the mental image I had from start, that Boro was up to something strange. I am at least happy that I didn't make it up - but that it probably in fact meant that he was a Wolf.

But amazingly played, Boro, and I said elsewhere, amazingly played, Brinn! And well everyone - it's been great to once again meet with y'all in such a cozy setting. (Twice as much for my buddies in the QT.)

For myself, I am probably the most interested in the Wolves' thought processes and logic - not the least the entire Boro-feat, how did they come up with it, what were their objectives, and so on...

I also urge everyone who remained alive to the end to at least skim through the Cuties thread. It was hilarious at times, but you will also get an insight into some of our inner thoughts, so we don't repeat ourselves here...

[Nogrod]

I have posted an epilogue to the Game Thread where you can find out the destinies of all those who were infected by Morgoth's spell or the disease they infected - aka. were moved into the QT.

It is all a result of an elaborate system I deviced and used some dice to play out. A nice little "after-game" for me. It turned out quite easy to write out, so the results seem to make sense.

Well, had the results been different it would have been relatively easy to tell them some other way to make sense.


So it wasn't that disasterous in the end, from the POV of the History of Middle-Earth, even if it at times looked like it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I wasn't ordinary, I was outright abysmal.

Well, I can certainly say that for myself!

I tell myself, though, that at least I might offer a bit of entertainment value, for both sides.

[Boromir88]

Probably my favorite message in Night 2's planning. I was so paranoid of Rikae that I thought they were obviously contradicting everything I posted, but weren't trying to point suspicion towards me. To stay 'hidden' as a seer and get more dreams in:

Could be paranoia. If our [Rikae] roles were reversed I wouldn’t openly give clues that I dreamed of a wolf night 1, especially a wolf who likes to chatter a lot. Their first post, makes mention that they like lists (opposite from my previous response to G55 rambling that I hate lists). First suspect list doesn’t have a wolf in it, but they later mentions that it was a designed trap for wolves. Which they make mention that Brinn and Kath look “opportunistic” by jumping on G55. Then later claims that Brinn fell for the trap by repeating G55/Pitch were suspicious (2 of the names on Rikae’s first list) In posts where xe’s contemplating votes xe’s “torn” by G55’s behavior. Maybe doubtful to G55’s guilt because xe was one of the few people I was interacting with in the early start. It would be really bold strategy for 2 mates to associate themselves too closely (I usually only do it if I’m in a pack with like Phantom or Nog). I’m just reading xer interactions towards me all day were extremely minimal, but xe made it a point to subtlety contradict me on lists and a comment that I looked to be “buttering Mac up.” (that was pretty amusing)

cobb55 might work in our favor to Rikae-seer, in the fact that now xe might view my early interaction with G55 as reaching out to identify the cobbler. I skipped Rikae’s posts where xe was arguing with G55, because there’s nothing to get from the cobbler getting under Rikae’s skin. But their final post #245 interesting. Xe makes mention of the “anti-Brinn” vote wagon that was starting (Pointing towards Huey, Lottie, and Inzil). I read their final post and I’m seeing xe’s putting it out to the village that it looks like there’s a wolf effort to “save” Brinn. If correct, xe will dream Brinn tonight. Finding her innocent might alleviate Rikae’s final comment about Huey’s “boldness” to save Brinn.

I know it’s scanty and I could be paranoid. But I would bet xe’s Seer, their first post was designed as a trap and xe believed Brinn stepped in it. Regardless of that, to kill Rikae tonight is still a big risk, because even if I didn’t believe Rikae was the seer, absent of any other people that looked the part, I would protect Rikae tonight.

Despite your one day, played brilliantly Rikae and you helped more than you knew at the time.

And sort of my "Night 1 strategizing"...which happened to be quite different from what I was hoping to achieve in this game. I was planning on being the 1st wolf to go down. Alas, again the dead threads allude me:

Trying to think as an ordo here, I would take it as Day 1 banter and nothing that would cause me to jump on as suspicious/reason to lynch. The risk is, whoever is the hunter, might pick up and think “well, hS, can’t be the hunter, so why?” and therefor decide to hunt you. You are right, that the hunter is a low priority gifted, who’s best benefit is when they die, they manage to take a wolf with them.

The seer can be catastrophic, not only their dreams. Even if the seer doesn’t dream of any of us, it gives them a baseline of who they can trust. If the seer dreams of another gifted, the Seer and Ranger/or Hunter, can start working in tandem with the seer’s dreams and ranger protecting the dreams (or the hunter hunting us). They’re never able to privately communicate with eachother, but that’s the worst case scenario, that the gifteds figured out who they are, and can coordinate their efforts of seer dreams/Ranger protecting their dreams and stopping our kills.

For the cobbler, it’s my absolute favorite role to be, I think there are many who find the role annoying, but I just find causing mischief fun. So, the cobbler counts as an innocent in the tally, but wants us to win. The downside is the cobbler doesn’t know any of us, so they can really muddle things up and go after/lynch us just like any other villager. Ideally, the cobbler is meant to die to help us win. Pretty much everyone already assumes I’m a nefarious schemer, even when I’m not trying to be! That’s my “baggage” and I doubt even if I haven’t played in a couple years, people are going to give up that baggage. Luckily, I delight in causing mischief. The benefit of being a wolf, but acting like you’re drawing all the suspicion that you’re the cobbler, is it makes the innocent less likely to vote for you. Since, lynching the cobbler counts as a loss on the innocent tally, people are far more inclined to ignore lynching the cobbler, if they feel they can get a wolf. So, since no matter what I say, I give off the vibes of being an evil schemer, my best survival tool is pretending to be so suspicious, I’m the cobbler. I plan to not attract so much attention early, because early days the village will be more inclined to want to lynch the cobbler. Later on, when the numbers say they desperately need to lynch a wolf, acting like the cobbler is great cover (in my experience).

I do hope that most people have forgotten about my desperate desire to be in the dead thread. In previous games with dead threads, I just found them so fascinating, but I’m cursed to never get to enjoy them for long. And being a wolf, I will aggressively and loudly fight for survival. I’ll see how things play out on Day 1, but expect me to start picking fights with 2 or 3 of the more active villagers and pretty much ignoring everyone else. That way there’s no trail of if I die “Boro didn’t say anything about The Ka, they must be in the same pack.” I want to be “Boro didn’t say anything about anyone and was just super focused on attacking Legate and Shasta.”

[Rikae]

Brinn and Boro, hats off to both of you for some very clever gameplay.

I must know:
Brinn, was your "bearing gifts" remark deliberate? Why did you choose your dreams? Deeetails!

Boro: so all that "in-character" "nightmares" " unconscious" talk & back and forth with G55 ... don't know if you've looked at the dead thread but I was dying to know if it was a hint, a bluff, a .double bluff, or pure nonsense!

There was a ridiculous amount of agonizing in the dead thread about how to protect Boro while not messing up his plan, and as it happened, trusting him to protect himself was the right move e for the wrong reasons. And G55 and I agreed to vote Brinn twice for opposite reasons. Heh. What an epic game!

Thank you so much Nog for a great setup and wonderful narrations!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I wasn't ordinary, I was outright abysmal.

Well, you're extra ordinary then.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But amazingly played, Boro, and I said elsewhere, amazingly played, Brinn! And well everyone - it's been great to once again meet with y'all in such a cozy setting. (Twice as much for my buddies in the QT.)

Indeed. Brinn, after D1 I had no idea what at all you could possibly be and tended to forget you even existed, in spite of the QT reminding us regularly. Congratulations on staying hidden and alive for so long, and thank you for winning the game for us!


Boro - words actually fail me. When did you turn into the phantom 2.0?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I have skimmed through a few pages of the quarantine thread, and so far this is my favourite quotation.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

OMG will Eonwe never die

I am not sure I dare read through the whole thing though.

[Lalaith]

Such fun! So well played everyone! Nogs, what a wonderful concept and such great write-ups. Big hearts all round....really loved this game.

At the beginning of this game I said I was good at spotting innocents and hopeless at spotting wolves. How true, sadly that turned out to be.
My sure-fire wolves were Legate, and then Eonwe. All wrong.
My sure-fire innocents were Greenie, Lottie, Kit, Rune, Pitch. All good.

So basically I wouldn't know a wolf if I fell over it and it bit me on the ankle.

[Loslote]

Aww, Boro, rude! Leave the poor innocent child alone!

Nog, this was such an incredible game! Everything from the actual gameplay to the narrations were phenomenal. And great job, everyone else, for making this such an exciting and gripping game to play! I'm looking forward to reading through the QT for a whole new perspective on what was going on.

[Lalaith]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I am not sure I care for this new nickname.

I wasn't ordinary, I was outright abysmal.

Hey, don't be like that, brother from another mother. (read the QT thread for explanation)
And congrats on the baby you have acquired since we last met!

[Loslote]

Also, I don't know where I got this, but I thought the Cuties knew who I was, and I was 100% expecting them to vote for me when G55 and Huin had majority, so that the wolves could Night kill me. I was so shocked when it was Brinn instead. Now that I've looked at the thread, I realize they didn't know, and I was worried about nothing the whole time.

[Rikae]

Crossed with Boro ... me, seerish? Well, I guess getting killed as seerish is the best an ordo can hope for, but I reacted to Boro the way I did Day 1 because I was thinking vaguely " possible baddie, possible seer, just nudge him slightly and see how he reacts" Guess that kinda worked? :Not how I wanted!

[Galadriel55]

Ha! I knew it! I bloody knew it! Since Day 1! Though I was considering Hunter as a possible alternative for Boro, and was nearly convinced in favour of Hunter when Sally died. But the longer Boro remained alive, the more certain I became of his furriness. I kneeeewww iiiitttt!!!


Will catch up to the discussion a bit later from my computer. For now, thank you for at least taking the Child down and for a wonderful climax! And thank you Nog for an awesome game!

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Aww, Boro, rude! Leave the poor innocent child alone!

Since in-narration they're my daughter I feel as if I have to smooth this over, but eh I was already dead and like to think old Indor went out with a smirk.

Again, thank you Nog for hosting and narrating such an awesome game. I don't think I've ever played a game as enjoyably chaotic and welcoming at the same time.

[Loslote]

Also......there was *zero* wolf-on-wolf in the Huin bandwagon. That many innocents really did just decide out of nowhere to quarantine a wolf!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also......there was *zero* wolf-on-wolf in the Huin bandwagon. That many innocents really did just decide out of nowhere to quarantine a wolf!

WHO SAID THIS AND GOT LIKE A MILLION PEOPLE DISAGREEING/ CONSIDERING ME FISHY IN RESPONSE, HMMM??!!

Ah thank you Lottie for pointing this out, now I at least feel vindicated about something.

[Lhunardawen]

Boro, you are insane and I love you. That is all.