Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, game thread

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Everybody sing along with me:

Dead innocents don't know anyone's role,
Dead innocents don't know anyone's role etc.

Which is to say, even though they're free of evil intentions, our beloved quarantined may still be wrong and the baddies can hijack a vote for a non-wolf.

No, they don't, but they have read Gal and Huine's interactions on the QT thread and know what lead them to pick Brinn yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Kath

The first vote after the reveal was Lottie's, half an hour after sally's vote, and that was with 7 minutes to go, and by the look of it almost every vote from then cross posted. Out of all 9 actual voters there, no one took the plunge of pushing forward another candidate fast enough. Very likely there are wolves who didn't want to be the first onto an alternative bandwagon who were watching the insanity with glee. But looking at the lateness of Legate and Mac's votes, who we now know were innocent, means not immediately throwing out an alternative doesn't automatically equal wolf.

Yes, but Legate for instance was quite convinced of Sally's guilt. Mac wasn't.

I'm getting more and more convinced it is not in the innocents' interests for everyone to leave their votes to the last minute. (Why do you think I've voted earlier than I had to 2 days in a row?) Dudes, let's learn from our mistakes and spread out the votes a little toDay, so we have time to discuss and react to each other's votes. Please.

Originally Posted by Lottie

The other important thing to consider here is, Lommy is a very good player who is very good at arguing for her innocence. If anyone could get away with encouraging the village to quarantine a Hunter who was very likely to take an innocent with her, it would be Lommy. With five wolves, I could see them agreeing that someone should be playing loud and bold, and that Lommy was the best person to do it.

Awwww, this warms my heart a little! But to be honest, I am a crappy and unhappy liar irl and it often shows in werewolf too *points at signature*

Originally Posted by Lottie

I'm with Lalaith here - it was very hard to think and plan around Lommy arguing that we should just quarantine Sally yesterDay. There wasn't another voice arguing with you, so we all just ended up quietly doing our own things without coordinating at all, and a lot of that (from what I remember) was just not being able to coordinate over you.

Then the question you should ask is probably why was there not another voice arguing with me? Why did everyone keep discussing Sally? Like it's been said, she revealed 45min before the deadline. Not as much time as would be ideal, but certainly plenty. Did the discussion loop around Sally because both innocents who wrongly suspected Sally and wolves thought lynching Sally was a good course of action? Then who was who?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm getting more and more convinced it is not in the innocents' interests for everyone to leave their votes to the last minute. (Why do you think I've voted earlier than I had to 2 days in a row?) Dudes, let's learn from our mistakes and spread out the votes a little toDay, so we have time to discuss and react to each other's votes. Please.

Or, so you and your mates have a little breathing room?

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Then the question you should ask is probably why was there not another voice arguing with me? Why did everyone keep discussing Sally? Like it's been said, she revealed 45min before the deadline. Not as much time as would be ideal, but certainly plenty. Did the discussion loop around Sally because both innocents who wrongly suspected Sally and wolves thought lynching Sally was a good course of action? Then who was who?

Ah, so it's the innocents' fault for listening to you?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Or, so you and your mates have a little breathing room?

After yesterDay's fiasco I'd think what Lommy suggests here seems plain sense, not sure why you'd react so strongly to this.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ah, so it's the innocents' fault for listening to you?

There were a lot of other people involved in yesterDay's lynch beyond Lommy, so we could at least entertain the possibility that Lommy's initial suspicion of sally was innocent and some wolves picked it up and ran with it. Or would you rather lynch her now and worry about her guilt later?
I don't like this exclusive fixation on Lommy. If you think she's a wolf, who do you think are her packmates?


I actually think both Lommy and Lottie sound genuine to me. Taking a look at Brinn's and Greenie's posts from yesterDay right now.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Lommy

No vote: Lhuna Not much to say about that, but speaking of her: don't look at her vote tally of yesterDay, it has several errors.

The several errors you speak of is where I removed sally and Mac's votes since they're no longer of consequence. Apart from that, our tallies are the same.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Greenie

I have to say I'm with Lommy on this one. The last-minute scramble is a recipe for disaster, and also harder to analyse the next Day if everyone crossposts and votes in a hurry.

Which has definitely been the case toDay.

But, if we're talking about voting earlier, are we in fact going back to Legate's points from Day 1 again?! The poor thing must be rolling in his quarantine bed.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Kath

But, if we're talking about voting earlier, are we in fact going back to Legate's points from Day 1 again?! The poor thing must be rolling in his quarantine bed.

I mean, now that we know the majority of the QT is innocent it might actually be sensible to vote early, since that means that known innocents can magnify a vote that they believe to be for someone evil (of course, there may be enough misdirection from the Evils to throw it off, but we can hope...).

[Pitchwife]

Just came across this in my Greenie reread:

Originally Posted by A Little Green #710

What can I say? Sally and Inzil both cast votes that look like they could have been motivated by trying to save Huin, both bring this up themselves in a fairly shifty way, and neither of their interactions with Huin contradicts a read of them as fellow wolves. Sally didn’t interact with Huin at all and has played generally safe and uncontroversial, while Inzil brought up an obvious Ranger slip, and was suspected by Huin on both days in a way that would just pass for safe wolf-on-wolf. I’d say both have fairly strong cases against them, so I’m not surprised if they are “pretty much universally suspected”.

Looks fair enough at first sight, but would look even fairer if you hadn't used sally's 'safe suspect choices' as a point against her in #621. Double standard much?

[Eönwë]

I also agree with Greenie that the tunnel-vision on Lommy. While I agree that she's very suspicious and is one of my top vote picks for the Day (along with Boro and Zil), it definitely seems to have eased pressure on others (so that they don't have to defend themselves), and has almost certainly given cover for Infectors to attack (or defend in theory, but I don't think I've seen anyone do this) a possible packmate (i.e. Lommy) - they can just blend in with the crowd in this.

edit: x-ed with Pitch

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

After yesterDay's fiasco I'd think what Lommy suggests here seems plain sense, not sure why you'd react so strongly to this.

I was just poking her a bit. Voting earlier really isn't a problem for me

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I mean, now that we know the majority of the QT is innocent it might actually be sensible to vote early, since that means that known innocents can magnify a vote that they believe to be for someone evil (of course, there may be enough misdirection from the Evils to throw it off, but we can hope...).

This would be most workable if everyone here voted before the QT DL. I'm not sure all could manage it.

x/d with Pitch and Steve

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

The several errors you speak of is where I removed sally and Mac's votes since they're no longer of consequence. Apart from that, our tallies are the same.

Ah, I didn't see you did that on purpose. But you also put Sally's reveal in the wrong place chronologically. (Before Zil's vote when it was actually after.)

Inzil's #930, then backing off immediately when people question it seems rather glaringly evil to me. If his intent was to "poke" me like he says, why back off before I have had a chance to reply?

Originally Posted by Eönwë

You've been on my suspicious list since Day 2

I know, and it doesn't make me any less suspicious of you.

Originally Posted by Inzil

This would be most workable if everyone here voted before the QT DL. I'm not sure all could manage it.

Interesting suggestion. Not obviously for toDay - I feel like it's a little too late, given that the qt vote is quite likely already in full swing. We don't want them to make a hurried last minute vote either. But doing this, however counterintuitive it may sound, *would* mean giving the power over a tie to a known innocent (unless the innocents in the qt are terribly disorganised and let Huine and Gal take advantage of it).

If we're doing a fake vote (again, not a bad idea but a bit late maybe), then I'll add a

+-Inzil


edit: help, xed with two actual votes and a bunch of other stuff!

[Lalaith]

After yesterDay's fiasco I'd think what Lommy suggests here seems plain sense, not sure why you'd react so strongly to this.

For my part, while I certainly don't want another last-minute panic, I would at least like to wait to see what the QTs have to say.
I haven't had time to do as much reading/analysis today as I wanted (busy at work). I've got various ideas of wolf combos floating about in my head but not enough time to sit down and plot them all in order to see if they stand up.
I feel still feel bad and somewhat dispirited about the shambles of yesterDay. Rune's term was "bummed out" and I know what he means.
So because I haven't had time to do new analysis toDay I haven't really moved on much from my suspect list of yesterDay. I could add Lommy on there - I admire her chutzpah toDay but I still think her behaviour was suspicious, particularly in her refusal to acknowledge the benefit of having HunterSally as a known innocent.

[Lalaith]

I would also put Shasta on my 'watch' list. For the reasons, (ironically enough) that Lommy states in her recent analysis.

I still feel I haven't got any kind of handle on Lhuna, Ka and, to some extent, Kath.
Which probably means they are all brilliant wolves.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by THE Ka

[RL – Sorry for the long bit of silence, helping grieving family is always difficult the second day when shock wears off. I have some more time today so I’ll be catching up further. Thank you everyone for your words, I appreciate all of you. As for the Game, again, regardless of role and what’s happening in our RL let’s keep playing as a sort of solace in the storm. [/RL]

THE Ka <3 <3 What a lovely way to put it.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Or, so you and your mates have a little breathing room?

I have to say I'm with Lommy on this one. The last-minute scramble is a recipe for disaster, and also harder to analyse the next Day if everyone crossposts and votes in a hurry.

On a related note, I don't like the extent to which we are focusing on Lommy at the moment, and especially how Inzil has been pushing it since minutes into the start of the Day. Regardless of whether Lommyis a wolf or not, even regardless of whether we end up lynching her or not, we are only playing into the wolves' hands by focusing so heavily on one person. If Lommy is a wolf, she and her packmates are doing this on purpose to keep attention on her while the others sail by unnoticed (or are made to look better by crusading against her, *coughInzilcough*). She'd be more than capable of pulling off something like that, because, as Lottie said, she is a very good player and a better wolf than she gives herself credit for.

I'm off to have a quick look at Brinn now to try and figure out what on earth is going on there.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Then the question you should ask is probably why was there not another voice arguing with me? Why did everyone keep discussing Sally? Like it's been said, she revealed 45min before the deadline. Not as much time as would be ideal, but certainly plenty. Did the discussion loop around Sally because both innocents who wrongly suspected Sally and wolves thought lynching Sally was a good course of action? Then who was who?

I can only know what I was thinking and feeling at the time, which was of course clouded by my knowing that if Sally really was the Hunter, I was probably in real danger of being hunted. But I was so confused and overwhelmed that whole time. I wasn't able to come up with a coherent argument. I flopped between "she's the Hunter, I am absolutely not voting her, I don't want to die!" and "there's no way, she's gotta be a wolf, we need to just quarantine her". I could imagine that you might have just decided to go with the second option and not even consider that she might have been the Hunter. I could also imagine that you knew for a fact that she wasn't a wolf. But you definitely weren't reacting the same way I was, and the fact that no one else was able to make a coherent argument, either, suggests to me that my reaction - being confused and overwhelmed - might have been a really common reaction to have.