Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, game thread

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Similar kind of behaviour I have been noticing toDay still also in Huinesoron, to a degree - even though in his case, it is rather along the lines of "I comment on XY, but then again just so that you don't think, I do not really mean it, but thought you should know".

My problem right now is that the current big thing is the Kit discussion, and it doesn't seem to be breaking along any kind of lines, and in particular along any of the lines I noted earlier. As just one example: you and Lottie entered the discussion with posts saying similar things, but now you suspect her for a post on a different aspect.

Which is exactly what I'd expect from an innocent! I'm not seeing anyone jumping out at me as a wolf, so I'm worried the whole thing is just villagers savaging villagers while the wolves look on and laugh.

I've also been wanting to see more from Mac, and I see he posted right before you did. Time to see what he has to say for himself.

hS

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

My problem right now is that the current big thing is the Kit discussion, and it doesn't seem to be breaking along any kind of lines, and in particular along any of the lines I noted earlier. As just one example: you and Lottie entered the discussion with posts saying similar things, but now you suspect her for a post on a different aspect.

Which is exactly what I'd expect from an innocent! I'm not seeing anyone jumping out at me as a wolf, so I'm worried the whole thing is just villagers savaging villagers while the wolves look on and laugh.

I agree with this. And I've seen this a couple of times now:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Legate, I quite agree (hence my initial eyebrow at Zil), but we'd already arrived at most of the points you make at the end of the discussion, so isn't it a bit convenient to make yourself look good by this holier-than-thou sermon?

Pitch was the first to raise an eyebrow at Zil's behavior, so he thinks it's holier-than-thou for Legate to come down on it. Then...

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, and I am getting bad vibe from Lottie's post above.

It essentially says "I am suspicious of the people who did something toDay that has provoked controversy" - that could easily also mean "I am a Wolf waiting for people to pick which of the bandwagons that are offering themselves toDay would be the best to ride on". These are literally all the things that were controversial toDay, stated by someone else, so I could imagine Lothwolf writing it here to "butter up" people who first stated it. I am wary.

Legate had already condemned the people who brought up Kit, so when I also brought it up, he thinks it's jumping on the bandwagon. Which is all somewhat fair, except that it was my genuine first reaction to seeing someone keep talking about a slip until the Ranger was forced to straight up admit it - this is very suspicious! Yeah, I wasn't the first to mention it, but I'm not going to avoid saying that I think it's suspicious just because I wasn't the first person to see it go down and say something about it.

[satansaloser2005]

Also, I don't like how we're discussing Kit, so those engaging in that discussion strike me as inherently more suspicious than those not. Just a random thought.


x'd with Lottie

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Also, I don't like how we're discussing Kit, so those engaging in that discussion strike me as inherently more suspicious than those not. Just a random thought.

I am now done with it.

[Thinlómien]

I kinda agree with everything Sally has said after her return, but somehow it makes me rather more than less suspicious of her. She's mostly echoing sentiments of other players, and fairly uncontested ones at that. She couldn't be less controversial if she tried.

I'm flip-flopping on Lottie again. She seems to make sense from her own pov, but I'm not sure it's an innocent pov.

Mac's defence of himself didn't really make me less suspicious of him, but it did make me a little more suspicious of Greenie. Hmmm...

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I kinda agree with everything Sally has said after her return, but somehow it makes me rather more than less suspicious of her. She's mostly echoing sentiments of other players, and fairly uncontested ones at that. She couldn't be less controversial if she tried.

Great minds think alike, and also sometimes this one.

[satansaloser2005]

In such a big game, it's easier for me to focus on a few people at a time, rather than try to get a read on everyone and stressing myself out. My previous (twice removed) post is just who I'm reading as especially suspicious right now, so I'm unlikely to vote toDay for someone who isn't on that list. It's also getting closer to the end of the Day, so I think people might want to start making up their minds on who they're voting for, but I know that's easier said than done.

Unfortunately I passed out illogically early last night and didn't get the chance to post until this morning, so I'm sorry about that. I'll try to do better over the weekend, for sure.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Legate had already condemned the people who brought up Kit, so when I also brought it up, he thinks it's jumping on the bandwagon. Which is all somewhat fair, except that it was my genuine first reaction to seeing someone keep talking about a slip until the Ranger was forced to straight up admit it - this is very suspicious! Yeah, I wasn't the first to mention it, but I'm not going to avoid saying that I think it's suspicious just because I wasn't the first person to see it go down and say something about it.

I was not referring to you speaking about that one thing, but about everything. Boro, Mac. Everything that has been deemed "controversial by the public". I am not saying these can't be genuine suspicions, but these are all things you can then easily pick up if a bandwagon starts on either of them - and they all seem like they easily could.

EDIT: x-ed with multiple again and took out something I accidentally quoted

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I was not referring to you speaking about that one thing, but about everything. Boro, Mac. Everything that has been deemed "controversial by the public". I am not saying these can't be genuine suspicions, but these are all things you can then easily pick up if a bandwagon starts on either of them - and they all seem like they easily could.

With Boro that's again probably fair. However with Mac, I had been suspicious of him yesterDay, and I've mentioned it a few times. One thing you are right about is that I haven't spent the time to really look at the quieter players. Most of the people I suspect right now are the louder players who have done things that are obviously suspicious. I'll do my best to take a look at the players who are currently flying under my radar. I may even do a list, though I've tried once or twice and just found the sheer size of the village and the number of people I have no read on a little overwhelming.

[Kitanna]

Shasta
Post #63: Banter about cobbler
Post #64: Banter about Lady Macbeth
Post #65: +1 for Inzil. I assume one point for a comeback...?
Post #66: Likes something Lottie says about a no lynch idea from G55.
Post #67: Says he's contributed enough to look like he's particpating. Says he'd vote for Lommy. But clearly a joke.
Post #175: Returns from his slumber to let us know here's reading through.
Post #188:

Based on nothing more than this description of events I'd speculate on Cobbler-G55 and Innocent-Rikae. My opinion may change after I get context.

*stares into the nothingness of the void to make sense of his accuracy*
Post #190: Responds to a Lottie, one I believe is about keeping an eye on Brinn
Post #191: Reiterates finding Rikae innocent and G55 cobblerish. Also finds some suspcion in Pitch/Eonwe
Post #192: Asks for more context on a Pitch post
Post #197: Digs in on Greenie's analysis. Going so far as to say an evil Greenie might mean an evil Ka. Most of the post is just benign reponses to what Greenie said of everyone.
Post #198: Responds to a comment from Pitch
Post #201: Likes a post Ka made.
Post #204:

Of those with votes, I won't vote for Rikae, could vote for Brinn or Pitch, and probably won't be voting for G55 unless it's to save someone I think is innocent.

Post #207: Gives an opinion on Greenie. Did agree with some of her points, but also didn't on others. Seemed to be someone he thought warranted watching, but didn't outright suspect.
Post #211: Response to a Greenie
Post #215: Makes a bad pun/dad joke. I point to the door of my office and yell "get out" to no one.
Post #229: Time check for self based on Inzil's comment about "last night?!"
Post #233: Response to Pitch
Post #239: Votes Pitch
Post #248: Not comfortable with Greenie or Eonwe's votes.
Post #322:

I think perhaps Kitanna is my best read at the moment. I had fundamentally the same reaction to G55's eleventh-hour Ranger claim as she did.

This is before all those posts close together popped up about my comments toward the fake reveal.
Shasta hasn't been back since. A few others have mentioned feeling ok or good about him. To me, I mean, seems genuine in his short posts, but I'm finding it hard to truly sort him out.

[Kath]

I'm sorry, I'm very short on time toDay and won't be back again before the deadline so I need to vote now. I've skim read since my last post just to get the general gist of where everyone is but haven't looked at anything much in detail.

The person jumping out to me right now is Inzil and it's because of the Kit thing. So I'm being a total hypocrite by talking about it again.

Originally Posted by Inzil

It could hardly have stayed hidden. Thing is, the only way she could have known G55 wasn't who she claimed was if she was the Ranger herself. If that's the case, why on Arda would Rikae have been a better target over Kit (unless the Wolves indeed were antsy Rikae might be the Seer)?

Since we're now talking about it, assuming Kit is the Ranger, the only reason I can see for the wolves going after Rikae instead of her is that they thought she was the Seer. This felt clear to me from the top of the Day.

Originally Posted by Inzil

That's what I can't fathom. Does it give Rikae-as-possible-Seer more weight? Or could it point to a very bold Kitwolf?

Ok, maybe it's because I am taking the Kit thing at face value, but then because of that I'm not sure about this push for a Kitwolf theory. It was picked up on and Inzil quickly dropped it.

And then he seemed quite defensive when people said that they didn't like it all being brought up.

++INZIL

[Loslote]

Feel good about
Legate - I wasn't sure yesterDay, but his posts toDay give me an innocent vibe.
Kitanna - If she's lying, we'll find out eventually. For now I see no reason to distrust her.
Shasta - I really like how he handled the Kit situation, trying to defuse it without drawing attention to it.

Feel okay about
Greenie - I've liked some of her points, and I feel like she's being very helpful. I don't have a strong enough sense of her to put her in the "good" category, though.
Huinesoron - I like the way he's thinking about the game, which makes me feel generally okay about him. I do see some of the points people have made about his summaries not always being completely accurate, though, and that's something to keep an eye on - in particular, do his summaries end up resulting in a cohesive misleading campaign?
Lhuna - I've liked what I've seen so far toDay. She seems to be helpful and thoughtful.
Brinniel - I didn't get any sense at the deadline yesterDay that any wolves were trying to swing the vote away from her. Moreover, I've been getting an innocent vibe from her. I don't want to assume innocence, though, so I won't let my feeling that wolves were not trying to save her push her into the "good" category. I could be wrong - a lot of people get a very different feeling from her - but I don't suspect her at this point.

Feel dubious about
Pitchwife - I go back and forth on Pitch. I got a wolfy vibe yesterDay, and I'm torn on his involvement with the Kit-Zil thing earlier. I don't have him at the top of my suspicion list, but I don't trust him either.
Lommy - I get a vaguely positive vibe from her, but then I end up disagreeing with most of what she actually says. I don't know if we're just coming from very different perspectives, but I end up not knowing what to think about her.

Feel bad about
Zil - He'd been largely flying under the radar for me, right up until he pointed out the Kit thing, which I found highly suspicious. I don't know what motivation an innocent would have in bringing it up. I could easily see that being something the wolves planned out over Night.
Boro - I haven't been comfortable with his posts toDay. Like Lommy, he could just be approach this from a completely opposite perspective than I am, but I get a bad feeling from him.
Mac - I started to be suspicious of him yesterDay, and his posts today have been worrying. Specifically, his posts about being framed felt a little pre-planned to me - like he knew Rikae was going to die and had time to work himself up about their death implicating him.

Feel nothing about
Kath - I think what I've seen has been pretty reasonable, but she's flying under my radar. Almost put her in "okay", but I don't have a strong enough feeling.
Lalaith - ditto Kath - what I've seen has felt fine, but I haven't gotten a really good sense.
Eönwë - I haven't seen enough to get a feeling one way or the other.
Rune - No read at all, I'd almost be inclined to put him in "dubious" just based on a vague feeling but it's not strong enough or based on anything, so I'll reserve judgement until I have a better read.
THE Ka - ditto Kath and Lalaith - seems helpful, but flying under my radar.
Sally - I haven't seen enough from her to get a good reading on her yet, totally under my radar.

I don't like how many people I don't have a read on, but in such a big village, it's hard to get a sense from everyone. I will probably vote for someone in my 'bad feeling' category, unless someone in my 'dubious' or 'no feeling' categories does something particularly suspicious.

[Boromir88]

Ok, so reading has caught up to date. I made brief notes on things that were addressed to me.

Respond to saying sally's vote looked suspicious:

sally's vote strikes me as a little suspect. In the spur of the moment with such little time, I think everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim. But if Brinn's not a wolf, sally's vote is the most suspicious.

I honestly can't tell you my point was here...other than temporary bout of conspiracy theory. It was late for me, I was exhausted, went to bed hungry and had a lapse that was focused more on sleeping than making sense. For whatever it's worth, it's not a suspicious vote. I'm personally feeling better today and sally looks trusty.

Respond to Greenie:

Why? I’m a little uneasy about Eonwe’s vote too as he’s been very cautious in general and that vote was, as Lommy and Lottie have pointed out, an easy way to keep his hands clean. But whether G55 was the cobbler or the ranger shouldn’t really impact an assessment of Eonwe because an Eonwolf wouldn’t know what she was, aside from “not wolf”.

True, but not so much that EonWolf wouldn't have known G55's specific role. It's more a throw away vote that could have been useful to prevent a ranger from getting lynched I would zero in and want to pay far more attention to. A throw away vote that didn't matter in the lynch of a cobbler I'm not going to worry about.

If that doesn't quite explain it well enough, for further understanding of why I'm not interested in throw away votes that didn't matter to a cobbler being lynched...see my next point below.

Response to Legate and Eonwe's accusations with my focus on the G55/Brinn wagons.

In all seriousness, am I the only one who's frustrated by the thought of thousands of paths and leads going every which way? One person can't possibly consider everything that you expect me to consider. I forget who, someone said we have a boring/unadventurous wolf pack. I think we have 5 wolves pulling things in 500 different ways and some are vocal leading the paths, others are laying low/joining in to different paths.

I'm one person. Right? I can't consider everything and to lump it on my desk "Boro didn't look at this" "Boro didn't look at that", is just flat wrong. "That must mean he's saying there can't be a wolf in the non-G55/Brinn voters." No, I didn't say that at all and that looks straight up suspicious. I just said I wasn't going to look into it. You went and looked into it. Great. Thank you. Seriously, thank you. It means I can look at what you say and make some judgements about you and the non-G55/Brinn voters.

Edit: crossed with a bunch

[Lhunardawen]

Last few thoughts before I vote. It's waaay too late here already.

Originally Posted by Brinn

So I found Pitch slightly suspicious yesterDay because he picked on Legate who if innocent, could be easy to build a case against. I did back off some on the suspicions, as I sensed a bandwagon building on him and if he were innocent, could be the work of wolves and didn't want to be caught up in it (which is apparently the post that several including Rikae found to be suspicious).

Wait let me see if I get this right. If Legate is innocent it could be easy to build a case against him, so you suspected Pitch because he picked on Legate. Then you eased up on suspecting Pitch because you did not want to be caught in a bandwagon that could be orchestrated by wolves.

I'm just... Lost. Shouldn't one back off from suspecting someone because of what they said, not because you're worried about what others would think if you end up voting for an innocent? Not helping your case here.

I'm in the camp that finds Eönwë's vote yesterDay suspicious, and his posts so far today don't ease that feeling.

One thing that I don't think people have really addressed toDay is that Pitch was seriously on the chopping block yesterDay and then managed to get taken out of the running, and a large part of that was G55 becoming an eligible vote candidate due to Zil and Lottie.

But also take into account that (at least) Lottie's vote was consistent with her suspicions all Day. It's also odd that you agreed with Boro about Zil and Lottie's votes and then suspect him for pointing it out.

Might vote for one of these toDay:
Mac but almost too out there a choice, I'm finding his posts difficult to reconcile with what I know of an InfectedMac
Lommy
Brinn

Bears looking at more closely:
Boro
Kath
Huin
Zil
Kit
Eönwë

Everyone else, either I can't put a finger on or flying off my radar or there's just not enough space/energy for now.

[Huinesoron]

Have looked over Mac's #405, and I don't like it. He seems to be focussing heavily on the people who suspect him, and explaining why that must make them wolves. Okay, I've read enough Werewolf to know that innocents do this, but a) so do wolves, and with a good deal more urgency, and b) didn't Mac spend a big post early toDay explaining how he thinks G55 thought he was a wolf? He even brings it up again here.

And yes, there are more details, but with the amount of words that have been thrown around you can build some kind of case against everyone. The fact remains that his case against Greenie relies heavily on 'this is exactly how I’d expect a Green wolf to act'.

At the moment, my vote would probably go to Mac or Pitch. Pitch has been looking better toDay, but as I said (earlier toDay, I think?), I tend to read him as reasonable when he's responding to me anyway. So I need to go back and read him over again.

Lommy has... has she been posting? Right, a bit at the end of page 9, and onto 10. That explains why she hasn't struck me as suspicious for a while - she's not been here? I'll look over her as well, but my memory is that I've felt slightly better about her toDay.

The Zil/Lottie connection seems to have evaporated, so I'm tentatively calling Lottie innocent (and see no reason to change my earlier placing of Greenie and Legate in that category). Zil has... wow, has really been pushing this Kit-discussion, hasn't he? Leaning against trusting him still.

Crossposts from people named above: Lommy is back and, oh stars, literally saying 'flip-flopping'. But I think I'm getting a feel for her style, and this doesn't feel wolfish. I'll still reread to check what I was worried about before (too many villagers, I can't remember who did what!)

Zil has posted with... a short, zero-content post. 'Short' seems to be his style, but #412 does take it to extremes. Overtones of 'let me drop back into the shadows'. So I stand by my 'wolfish' read.

(Crossed with everything from #409.)

hS