Craziest Tolkien Theories

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Okay, Noldorin High-kingship.

Originally of course Finwe. With the rebellion this became Feanor/Fingolfin as rivals in Beleriand, Finarfin in Valinor. Feanor dies and Maedhros resigns his claim. Ergo Fingolfin, undisputed heavyweight high-kingship champion of Middle-earth.


Thus,

Fingolfin
Fingon (elder son)
Turgon (younger brother)
Earendil (grandson; never a "king", but ruled the surviving remnant; interesting in that his claim passed through Idril, who was still alive but never "queen;" nor was Tuor a ruler of the Elves.)
=Elwing (Thingol's heiress in the female, and only, line)
Gil-galad(!!!)

All versions agree that the next up was Gil-Galad, whatever his parentage. Note that Elrond (and Elros) were passed over (why?)

If we were to accept the '77 version as canon, GG being Fingon's son, then we have a succession which is difficult to make sense of. Straight primogeniture is right out, because GG would have come before his uncle Turgon. If the "eldest male" is the rule, surely GG would have come before Earendil?

If we take the HME version as canon, which apparently was JRRT's real intent, then Finarfin's house comes into play and it makes a bit more sense: Fingolfin to Fingon to Turgon to Earendil and then, Fingolfin's line being extinct in ME (the Peredhil being disqualified), then the crown falls to the sole surviving member of the junior branch. Male member, needless to say; this was clearly a semi-Salic succession (which would imply that Amroth would have been next in line after GG had T not rejected his being the son of C&G). There is an implication that either Elessar (by marriage) or Eldarion after him became de jure High King, as living male descendant of Finarfin's house (through great-grandma Galadriel), but there is no suggestion that Elrond's sons had any claim... why?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

If the "eldest male" is the rule, surely GG would have come before Earendil?

As you note, though, Eärendil never rules as King, and I would argue that he doesn't even rule the remnant of the Noldor--he rules the remnant of Gondolin. Thus, he's Turgon's next heir but not Fingolfin's--let alone Finwë.

In any event, after Tuor comes to Gondolin, there are precious few texts from the post-LotR period dealing with ANY element of Middle-earth's history until around when Eregion was founded... and there aren't all that many pre-LotR either. I am undoubtedly biased by the published Silm, but I don't think there's any JRRT text that would contradict a reading that says Gil-galad became High King after the death of Turgon.

Of course, whether or not anyone actually claimed the title High King of the Noldor until after the breaking of Beleriand is another matter, and by then there was no Eärendil left in Middle-earth to confuse things--though Galadriel was back in the picture by the time Lindon was being founded, and it does seem to have been the case that Lindon in its earliest days had a strong Sindar component (under Celeborn too!), so I think the fact that Celeborn and Galadriel drift away and help found Eregion suggests that Gil-galad was already ensconced as king there and if, as a king at all, then as High King.

One does wonder about Elven preferences with kingship that age is probably a benefit to any claimant--certainly, Maedhros's accession to Fingolfin is couched in terms of "you are the eldest," and his forfeiting of any claims in favour of Fingon after the Bragollach implies the same principle being honoured in the breach. This argument helped make sense in the published Silm of Turgon preceding Gil-galad.

From the standpoint of how Elven kingship is implied to have come about in the HoME 'fairy tale' of Imin, Tata, and Enel, kingship does seem to derive from being the Eldest of one's race. Whether or not that's literally true of Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë (it certainly seems not be for Elwë, given his brothers and unspecified other kinships that held the Sindar in Middle-earth), it is certainly metaphorically true that, by visiting Valinor first, they became the first of the Calaquendi. And for a race of immortals, the human concerns of age (look at the House of Saud for what happens with mortals whenever "the eldest member of the family" is next in line) are not relevant--instead, Elves are closer to the metaphorical wine, getting ever better with age.

But the real thing about Elven kingship that I think is overlooked--the flipside of the same coin--is that Elves don't naturally die. Men have to have succession plans, but Elves... not so much. Ingwë and Olwë and Finarfin still reign in Valinor, and Thingol would be doing the same if not for those pesky Dwarves. Granted, by the time that Gil-galad comes into the throne, there is enough precedent that these things probably ought to have been codified... but what if the Elven instinct for immortality was such that they resisted ever putting things into order that way?

Certainly, if you look at how Fingolfin became High King, you see a long crisis after the death of Finwë that is only resolved when Fëanor dies and Maedhros graciously bows out--dragging his begruding brothers with him. Fingolfin had a claim to the kingship already, as his father's regent in Tirion and a greater part of the people seem to have expanded that pro tem power into permanence.

Fingolfin's own death is another crisis, and it could be argued that Fingon becoming High King only happens because a.) he's Maedhros's dearest friend and b.) Maedhros is smart enough to see that it is far more important for the Noldor to remain allies than to worry about who head wears the crown. Nothing about his succession strikes me as guaranteed--more that it just happened, because the two dominant Noldorin princes happen to be Fingon and Maedhros.

Fingon's death is another matter. The Nirnaeth is an even worse crisis than the Bragollach and Turgon goes straight into hiding. We don't actually know if Turgon claimed the title High King himself, if it was acclaimed for him by the surviving Noldor, or if it's an assumption of sorts--perhaps Morgoth decides the matter by fixating on the surviving son of Fingolfin and most hidden of his veiled enemies. In any case, Turgon is far more secure in his kingship than Orodreth, who could be a generation younger and is certainly far less of a force. Meanwhile, Maedhros is still a potentially moderating power and the chief figure amongst the Fëanorians.

By the time of Turgon's death (again, a crisis--remember, Elves don't die naturally), Maedhros is NOT a moderating figure, having fallen into going along with the Sack of Doriath and his march on the Havens of Sirion is definitely portrayed in keeping with a sense of "I am the only king left--accede or die," though Maedhros is fey enough that he doesn't care about the High Kingship, only the Silmaril. To be fair to him, the Kingship is quite theoretical only at this point while the Silmaril is still quite real.

It's entirely possible that Fingon was the last unanimous High King, given the state of Beleriand after the Nirnaeth and that Turgon only really holds the title insofar as Morgoth's attention and the lack of a contrary claimant gave it to him. Gil-galad may not have been spoken of as High King--or may not have claimed the title--until the foundation of Lindon. And if Lindon is to be seen as predominantly the successor state to Balar/Sirion, who would gainsay him when both Círdan (Balar) and Elrond (Gondolin/Doriath) supported him? There is definitely a sense in some of the Galadriel Eregion texts that Eregion kind of did its own thing and ignored him until it was too late.

And Gil-galad's own death is much like Turgon's: there isn't enough of a Noldorin kingdom to really acclaim a new High King. Unlike the earlier age, however, there isn't a rebound in power and territory to support a new establishment, and Elrond seems to be the wise one who points this out. Since he's the obvious candidate (the precedents at this point rule against Galadriel, and she's off living with the Silvan Elves anyway), that's the end of it.

[Huinesoron]

Formendacil, you make an excellent point about elves not generally needing a line of succession. I think I knew that intellectually, but I've not really considered the practical consequences.

Since this is the Crazy Theories thread, and spinning off from this discussion, I have a related one:

Turgon was never High King.

Here are the facts, taken from the published Silmarillion:

-When Fingolfin is slain, the succession is clearly stated: "Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor... and Fingon in sorrow took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor; but his young son Ereinion (who was after named Gil-galad) he sent to the Havens."

-Fingon is referred to as 'Fingon, the High King' (or variants thereof) no less than four times. His title is hammered home by Tolkien.

-When Fingon dies, there is no 'succession' text - Hurin just tells Turgon that he's their Only Hope. Instead, many paragraphs later, we get this: "Now the thought of Morgoth dwelt ever upon Turgon; for Turgon had escaped him, of ail his foes that one whom he most desired to take or to destroy. And that thought troubled him, and marred his victory, for Turgon of the mighty house of Fingolfin was now by right King of all the Noldor; and Morgoth feared and hated the house of Fingolfin, because they had the friendship of Ulmo his foe, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin gave him with his sword."

--So Morgoth sees Turgon as Fingon's successor - but given that the only other Noldorin kingdom at this point is Nargothrond, which didn't even show up to the Nirnaeth, that's hardly surprising. And Morgoth's hatred is framed very much as 'of the House of Fingolfin', not 'of the High King'.

-The only reference I can see that specifically links 'High King' with 'Turgon' is this one: "Then Tuor stood before Turgon son of Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, and upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son..."

--Does that mean Turgon was High King - or does it mean he was the son of High King Fingolfin? Much like Certain Ambiguous Wings, it could be read either way.

-When Turgon dies, he is not called High King - he is identified only by name. Fingolfin, Fingon, and Gil-Galad all get labelled 'the High King' at their deaths.

-Finally, we have this: "And when the tidings came to Balar of the fall of Gondolin and the death of Turgon, Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon was named High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth."

--Yes, that could mean he succeeded the title - but it could also mean that Gil-Galad wasn't acclaimed High King at a time when the majority of the Free Noldor were not only out of his control, but in an unknown location. Between the falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin, the Noldor consisted of: refugees on Balar, mingled with the Sindar (under Gil-Galad); House Feanor, a scattered and vaguely malevolent force (unlikely to answer to Gil-Galad); and Gondolin, a strong force still hidden from everyone (Gil-Galad couldn't order them around even if he wanted to). What would the concept of a High King even mean?

My theory is that the title fell into abeyance for the time between the Nirnaeth and the Fall of Gondolin. Numenorean authors sometimes include Turgon in the list, in the same way that they include Vardamir in their own - adding him makes things tidier. Why not just jump straight to Gil-Galad? Well, we can imagine a story of Earendil playing a part in the coronation, something that confirms Gil-Galad could not have been king before Gondolin fell. Or even just a record - 'When tidings came to Balar' etc.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Okay, yes. That certainly raises a material point- in Valinor, a race of immortals would have had no need for any concept of succession, save as a sort of hangover from the Great Journey and before. Which leads to the observation that Tolkien lost the plot a bit ca 1958 when revising QS: he has Feanor and Fingolfin squabbling over who was their father's heir- why? To what end? Inheritance would not have been a concept that any Elf of Valinor would have given the time of day to.

Things were different in Beleriand- especially since Feanor died almost immediately and the issue was front and center. But, yes, it probably was rather ad-hoc, other than a broad consensus that the House of Finwe was in charge. It's certainly fair to say that, viewed pragmatically, the title of High-King was meaningless after the Nirnaeth, sort of like "Holy Roman Emperor" after 1648. Turgon ruled Gondolin, Orodreth ruled Nargothrond, Thingol ruled Doriath, Cirdan was in charge at Sirion's mouths and Balar, the Feanorians were wandering exiles, the Green-elves did their own thing, and there was no central authority at all in a land where Morgoth was in effective control outside those few enclaves.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

hS- there is however the sentence "Bright Earendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths:" which as a practical matter meant all the surviving west-Elves of Middle-earth other than the rebel Feanorians.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

hS- there is however the sentence "Bright Earendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths:" which as a practical matter meant all the surviving west-Elves of Middle-earth other than the rebel Feanorians.

Eärendil did not claim high-Kingship for much the same reason Elrond remained "Master" of the Last Homely House. They are Peredhil and it seems fairly obvious from Tolkien's frame of mind that the line from Eärendil to Elros was more important to the Numenoreans than for the Elvish line under Elrond. Hence, the full-blooded Elven Gil-Galad is high-king of the Noldor, and that claim dies with him, even though Elrond certainly had the bona fides to claim it, but didn't.

If we weren't following whatever pseudo-Salic male primogeniture, Galadriel as the child of Finarfin probably was a better claimant to the throne than Elrond's watered-down birthright. And the power to take it, if she so chose.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Okay, yes. That certainly raises a material point- in Valinor, a race of immortals would have had no need for any concept of succession, save as a sort of hangover from the Great Journey and before. Which leads to the observation that Tolkien lost the plot a bit ca 1958 when revising QS: he has Feanor and Fingolfin squabbling over who was their father's heir- why? To what end? Inheritance would not have been a concept that any Elf of Valinor would have given the time of day to.

I think it was more a matter of honour, of position, than a matter of material inheritance upon the death of the parent. Who is closest to the King? Whose word is second just after his? Feanor and Fingolfin did not desire to inherit Finwe's material wealth or the status of King, but they were squabbling over who should be the second after Finwe. In other words, who is the favourite sibling, cause dada loves me best.

Besides, they were still familiar with the concept of death and succession based on other factors. The Elves had an extensive history in Middle-earth before coming to Aman, and we are given to assume that they were sometimes attacked by wild things and Morgoth's servants, and some of them disappeared mysteriously - but presumably at least some were just killed. Some of them disagreed with each other, or split up for other purposes, and chose/followed new leaders. So I don't think it's an outlandish concept for them to have, even though death in Aman was non-existent until Finwe - or, technically, Miriel.



With regard to Gil-Galad's inheritance, does anyone know how old he was when Earendil became the ruler of the remaining Elven folk? I assumed that Finwe's brother Turgon became King over Gil-Galad because the lad was too young to rule at the time, by whatever standards Elves had.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

hS- there is however the sentence "Bright Earendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths:" which as a practical matter meant all the surviving west-Elves of Middle-earth other than the rebel Feanorians.

What's the breakdown between the Havens of Sirion and the Isle of Balar? My admittedly vague understanding is that Sirion was founded by the refugees of Gondolin and Doriath, while everyone else - the remnants of the Falas, Nargothrond, and Hithlum - were holed up on Balar. If that's right, then... well, I have no idea how the numbers break down. Are there any known refugees of Nargothrond and Hithlum?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

With regard to Gil-Galad's inheritance, does anyone know how old he was when Earendil became the ruler of the remaining Elven folk? I assumed that Finwe's brother Turgon became King over Gil-Galad because the lad was too young to rule at the time, by whatever standards Elves had.

I have in my head that the Silm states he was born in 445, so ten years before the Bragollach. That would make him about 30 come the Nirnaeth, and just over 60 at the Fall of Gondolin. If we accept the LaCE claim that elves reach adulthood at 50, you're spot on with this.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What's the breakdown between the Havens of Sirion and the Isle of Balar? My admittedly vague understanding is that Sirion was founded by the refugees of Gondolin and Doriath, while everyone else - the remnants of the Falas, Nargothrond, and Hithlum - were holed up on Balar. If that's right, then... well, I have no idea how the numbers break down. Are there any known refugees of Nargothrond and Hithlum?

One certainly gets the impression from the Turinssaga that the Men of Hithlum all died in the Nirnaeth, and their women, children and elderly all became thralls of the Easterlings, save some few escapees who became outlaws (like Forweg and Androg). Similarly, it seems that the entire population of Nargothrond was either slaughtered or dragged off to slavery. So I would say "pretty close to zero."

You're right I think about Balar- Cirdan and the Falathrim had buggered off to there, only maintaining "hidden outposts" in the mainland fens, from which the doomed expeditions to Valinor were launched, as Voronwe told Tuor.

[Alassë Estel]

Perhaps this has been noted before somewhere else, but I find it most interesting that Tolkien's "Roverandom" seems to occurs in the same universe (realm?) as The Lord of the Rings and all other tales from Middle Earth.

Here is the passage which seems to confirm this:

Another time he [Uin the whale] took them to the other side (or as near as he dared), and that was a still longer and more exciting journey, the most marvelous of all Roverandom's travels, as he realised later, when he was grown to be an older and a wiser dog. It would take the whole of another story, at least, to tell you of all their adventures in the Uncharted Waters and of their glimpses of lands unknown to geography, before they passed the Shadowy Seas and reached the great Bay of Fairyland (as we call it) beyond the Magic Isles, and saw far off in the last West the Mountains of Elvenhome and the light of Faery upon the waves. Roverandom thought he caught a glimpse of the city of the Elves on the green hill beneath the Mountains, a glint of white far away; but Uin dived again so suddenly that he could not be sure. If he was right, he is one of the vey few creatures, on two legs or four, who can walk about our own lands and say they have glimpsed that other land, however far away.
'I should catch it, if this was found out!' said Uin. 'No one from the Outer Lands is supposed ever to come here, and few ever do now. Mum's the word!'



Come to think of it, that's not particulary "crazy", but I did want to relate it anyway.