Transmission theory - what if it's ALL true?

[shadowfax]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't see that in itself as a barrier. Our understanding of physics is based ultimately on our observations and extrapolations from therein. What we have never encountered is (obviously) not reflected in our models of the universe. Doesn't mean it can't happen, or doesn't exist. Our model of reality is only true until we encounter something in reality to contradict it; the lack of the encounter does not yet prove the infallibility of the model.

Granted.

I think that the changing of a flat earth to a round earth would not have been possible without some change in the laws of physics. So anything that happened before that change need not be explainable with our present understanding.

This raises the interesting perspective of what it is like to live in a place where the laws of physics suddenly change.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Interesting idea. What if it's the other way around - Valinor was removed from the round planet and ME remained?

Sorry, that is what I meant. My fingers were faster than my brain.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If I may be forgiven for ignoring physics for the benefit of fantasy fiction, what if neither place was removed in the physical sense but was instead removed to a parallel existence, in a "Mists of Avalon" or Doctor Who type of way? Two worlds, physically superimposed but existing in different planes of reality.

I guess that this is more or less what Tolkien had in mind (even if maybe he wouldn't have seen it that way). The question though is, what precisely does it mean when two worlds exist in parallel and there are some sort of portals between them. Is this parallellism physical or is it metaphorical?

Some scientists believe there may be wormholes in space-time meaning you can somehow get from one place to another through such a wormhole.

Some scientists believe that the laws of physics and mathematics were created, or came into existence, at the Big Bang. There may thus be other universes, created in their own big bangs, where totally different laws apply.

Now just imagine if there was a wormhole from our universe into some other such universe. If you went through such a wormhole you would transition to some other set of laws. In reality that would probably be the end of you as the atoms and molecules that hold you together in this universe might well do something totally different in that other universe (or the concept of atoms might not even exist). But suppose somehow that didn't happen ....

[Mithadan]

It is likely that a universe where Planck's Constant is slightly different would be very... uncomfortable for those traversing your hypothetical wormhole.

As an aside, an old friend of mine is firmly convinced that all of the changes mentioned in Morgoth's Ring were, in fact, what Tolkien intended. In other words, Ea was always round, Orcs were not corrupted Elves, etc. If asked, he would expound upon how the mythologies would have been revised to accommodate these changes.

I do not recall how my friend came down on the "transmission" methodology that Tolkien would ultimately have settled upon. In my view, Tolkien himself never decided. If you look, one can find hints that JRRT had never even completely rejected the Aelfwine/Pengoloth idea

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

As an aside, an old friend of mine is firmly convinced that all of the changes mentioned in Morgoth's Ring were, in fact, what Tolkien intended. In other words, Ea was always round, Orcs were not corrupted Elves, etc.

I can't say "all" the changes -- or rather, I won't necessarily say all the changes, given the complexity of the matter -- but concerning these ideas, I agree.

Or one could argue, for instance, that Tolkien's world was both once flat, and always round, depending upon a given tradition.

If asked, he would expound upon how the mythologies would have been revised to accommodate these changes.

If asked, I would rather blather about how certain notions were to be saved -- by altering the transmission theory and making the Legendarium a multi-perspective collection.

I do not recall how my friend came down on the "transmission" methodology that Tolkien would ultimately have settled upon. In my view, Tolkien himself never decided. If you look, one can find hints that JRRT had never even completely rejected the Aelfwine/Pengoloth idea

As far as I recall (at the moment [!]), Elfwine "sailed" after the later 1950's phase, to be, in my opinion, slowly replaced by the Bilbo/Numenorean tradition.


Ramble Alert


In 1962 a Numenor element is ultimately published in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil: "...No. 14 also depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Númenorean, concerning the heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Númenorean tale of Túrin and Mim the Dwarf."

And in The Lord of the Rings (revised edition in the 1960s), Bilbo becomes part of the transmission of texts dealing with the Elder Days -- not only through Tolkien's newly added "Note On The Shire Records", but also in a new statement found in Appendix A, The Return of the King.

Also, here's an interesting revision I think: Quenta Silmarillion (the LQ2 text): "Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs of [the Noldor>] Númenor concerning the world of old;..."

Another late note: in note 17 to The Shibboleth of Feanor (written in 1968 or later) it is stated that the Silmarillion is not an Eldarin title or work, but a compilation, probably made in Númenor: "... which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which "The Children of Hurin' was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age..." and concludes (concerning the compiled Silmarillion, and the four great tales in prose, and seemingly the account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils). "All however are "Mannish works."

Tolkien's parenthetical note above "in prose" is interesting here with respect to The Lay of the Children of Húrin, as Dírhaval wrote in verse and his work was said to be rendered into prose -- by Elfwine according to the "older" transmission idea -- but a prose version is now possibly made by an unknown Númenórean.

1968 Published in Vinyar Tengwar 48, we find the Synopsis of Pengoloð's Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi: "The following account is an abbreviation of a curious document, preserved in the archives of Gondor by strange chance (or by many such chances) from the Elder Days, but in a copy apparently made in Númenor not long before its downfall: probably by or at the orders of Elendil himself, when selecting such records as he could hope to store for the journey to Middle-earth. This one no doubt owed its selection and its copying, first to Elendil's own love of the Eldarin tongues and of the works of the loremasters who wrote about their history; but also to the unusual contents of this disquisition in Quenya: Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi: The Elvish Fingers and Numerals. It is attributed, by the copyist, to Pengoloð (or Quendingoldo) of Gondolin, and he describes the Elvish play-names of the fingers as used by and taught to children."

Pengoloð lives on, Bilbo is a new Elfwine "Elf-friend" (among others).

1971: "This general idea lies behind the events of The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, but it is not put forward as geologically or astronomically "true"; except that some special catastrophe is supposed to lie behind the legends and marked the first stage in the succession of Men to dominion of the world. But the legends are mainly of "Mannish" origin blended with those of the Sindar (Gray-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth." JRRT, Letter 325

Possibly as late as 1972 Last Writings Note 17: "Here he wrote that the idea [the idea being that Elvish reincarnation might be achieved by rebirth as a child] "... must be abandoned, or at least noted as a false notion, e.g. probably of Mannish origin, since nearly all the matter of The Silmarillion is contained in myths and legends that have passed through Men's hands and minds, and are (in many points) plainly influenced by contact and confusion with the myths, theories, and legends of Men."

So why go there in the 1960s? My answer goes back to a statement from Christopher Tolkien made in Myths Transformed, but just briefly here, I would say that going there saves parts of the older mythology for Quenta Silmarillion, again QS itself existing within a diverse Legendarium.


Total speculation: I'm not sure an Elvish, or purely Elvish Quenta Silmarillion existed. No doubt there were purely Elvish materials in Rivendell, and many songs and stories by the fire and in its gardens and so on. . . and living Elves too of course! And we can see one of Bilbo's works in Errantry/The Song of Earendil -- which differs from a translation of course . . . but in theory, Bilbo could also be responsible for translating "The Awakening of the Quendi" for an Elvish example, even if it's an Elvish fairy tale mixed with counting lore -- something I think Bilbo might like to tackle and make available in the Common Speech.

Seems a Bilbo-ish choice to me, anyway

[mindil]

I've been thinking for a long time about a quite different way of thinking about Tolkien's sources.

From HoME, it is clear that he did a great deal of rewriting. There were many things he was unsure about. Many things he only "realized" late in the process.

This does not work as a process of translation from fixed texts. Nothing about the writing process in HoME reads like a translator puzzling out a mysterious alphabet, or trying to decipher broken or faded text.

Rather, it reads very much like a person who is working from oral material, and who repeatedly goes back to his living sources to hear more. Much of it, in fact, reads like overheard material, with no ability to directly interview the narrators.

And indeed, Tolkien presents his most thorough material as oral tales. Tales told in the Cottage and told in Rivendell, told by Aragorn at Weathertop, told to Bilbo by Gandalf, and so on. Everything in the Red Book began as oral history.

What is more, Tolkien repeatedly describes how non-Elvish speakers are able to understand Elvish - the meaning somehow penetrates. Which is to say, that if Tolkien had heard the tales in their original Elvish, he would have understood them, though their exact phrasing would be lost in translation.

Tolkien also describes how people in our world reach Tol Eressea - it helps to be a child, and then one can reach it either through the Way of Dreams or the [apologies - I've forgotten the name of the physical route]. There is every reason to believe that Tolkien, as a child, heard the tales in person in the Cottage of Lost Play, and then, being the unique person he was, continued to travel to Tol Eressea by the other route.

Now, Tolkien was ready to "pretend" that he had found ancient manuscripts - he wasn't afraid of getting locked up for that. But he was wise enough not to bluntly state that he had written the tales from personal experience with real elves. Though if you read his accounts, he often hints to just such a thing.

It is conceivable that the reason so much of his writing is still locked away is that it is full of his personal experiences in ME, and the late, much missed CRRT didn't want the world to lose respect for his father as a crackpot.

In any case, Eol/ Elfwine is Tolkien. And the entire legendarium is a compilation of tales he was told or overheard himself, plus a few things that may have been written. And when he found a plot hole in the story he was trying to write up, he went back for more information. But getting back to ME wasn't something he could do reliably. He couldn't always get where and when he wanted. Sometimes he could interact with the MEians, and sometimes he was not-quite-present. Sometimes he understood a story clearly, and sometimes he wasn't at all sure he had understood it right. Sometimes he heard different versions and wasn't sure how to reconcile them.

His being able to reach ME depended on how "childlike" he was, and this faded with time. Probably in older age, he couldn't get there at all, at which point he began to consider the reframing of his "mythology."

And even prior, when he was still able to travel to ME, he didn't feel obligated to write everything up exactly as he heard it. For LoTR, he certainly made up lots of dialogue and details for the sake of a story that would go over well in our world. He may also have changed things for the sake of the story. Most likely, the number and identity of the hobbits who traveled with Frodo to Rivendell, which was in such flux as he wrote, was eventually written up for story purposes, not for faithfulness.

It is possible that as his ability to travel to ME grew and shrank, he might have been able to be present, or not-quite-present, in person for some of the action. He might have reported some of the Hobbit from first-hand experience, for example.

Anyway, I have long felt that it would be a very profitable project to comb through HoME and the History of the Hobbit with the tools of literary analysis to try to resolve which pieces are first-hand knowledge, which are authentic oral history, which are bits he made up, and so on.

Unfortunately, I have no time to dedicate to such a project, which is why I haven't posted it till now, though I've been thinking about it for a number of years. But if anyone wants to take up the challenge, it would be fascinating to sort out.

And when his other writings are made available, we can see if I was right.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

This guy claims Atlantis was real and presents evidence for his theory. Pretty sure its this one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Cp7DrvNLQ

[Mithadan]

Mindil, a thoughtful first post, very fitting within the theme of this thread.

I would doubt that Tolkien was the Aelfwine from Lost Tales or his other writings. But to the extent that Aelfwine translates to "Elf Friend" in modern English, it would be fitting to call Tolkien an AELFWINE.

Welcome to the Downs! I note that you joined in 2017. Three years is a long time to wait before your first post!

[mindil]

I have a very, very strict filter on my internet, and for years it blocked the registration confirmation email - don't know why. So I couldn't post at all and gave up trying. This week I figured I'd give it another try, and I don't know why it worked now, but here I am.

As for Tolkien being Aelfwine, my take is this:

In this world, Tolkien was an author, editor and translator (as am I, but not on his level). He produced good literature. That requires being selective and adaptive - i.e. editing - in what one produces.

Even assuming that the legendarium refers to something real - an assumption I like to take for aesthetic purposes - it is uncontestable that Tolkien must have adapted the material to make it suitable for presentation to readers in our world. In his appendices, he even discusses some such adaptations.

What I wish I could do, and hope some other fans will undertake to do, is to try to pick apart the "authentic" material from the literary inventions. By using the drafts of the texts and Tolkien's biography, I started to do that a few years ago, but saw the project was way to large to do alone, and now I can hardly contribute to it.

In any case, my assumption (based on the material, but I forget how I got to this), is that there are a small number segments of the legendarium that Tolkien witnessed personally, in a way that allowed him to interact with the events (he "fell into ME"); a larger number of segments that he witnessed personally in ghost form, as it were; about the same number of segments that he heard first-person accounts about, in live form; a few more first-person accounts that he heard in ghost form; a great many that he heard second-hand accounts about in live form; quite a few that he heard second-hand accounts about in ghost form; and finally a chunk that he saw written, either live or ghost. All these experiences happened in ME, at various ages, from childhood till late middle age, at which point he became unable to travel to ME anymore.

If this becomes a strong thread of its own, I'll try to go back and see how I concluded this, but it was at a stage when I was reading HoME and the like quite closely. In any case, sorting out which sort of exposure created which parts of the legendarium, and which parts were mildly or heavily adapted for storytelling purposes was a goal that I thought very worthy of a forum that was producing the New Silmarillion.

For a tiny example of what I mean, consider how Tolkien could have thought that Strider/ Trotter was a hobbit for so long. Clearly, he had not seen Trotter at that stage of the writing; he must only have heard about him. And he must have heard about him from someone who felt no need to clarify anything about who Trotter was. The whole "gold that does not glitter" part, as we see in HoME, was added by Tolkien much later, after he himself discovered that Trotter was Aragorn. It may have happened, or it might have been added by Tolkien to spare his readers the kind of mistake that he had made. The original story Tolkien heard about the Prancing Pony incident must have been told by someone who felt that Trotter's identity was so well-known there was no need to explain it. This would be long enough, but not too long, after the War of the Ring that the story was a favorite tale in general circulation.

Still, why assume it was a hobbit? Perhaps Tolkien heard the tale told by hobbits - but we don't find Common Speech understandable by outsiders; Tolkien must have heard the tale told by elves. Or perhaps, after hearing so much elvish and common speech in his First Age researches, he was able to understand Common Speech? In which case, if Trotter was presented in the Prancing Pony story, told by hobbits, as someone who became a close friend of the hobbits, with a hobbit-like name, Tolkien might have just assumed that he was a hobbit, too. For a while, he tried to reconcile Trotter's personality with hobbit-nature by thinking he was [I forget the name], the renegade hobbit that had been over-influenced by Gandalf.

Tolkien clearly got the story in batches - we are always seeing "the tale as foreseen from Lorien" and such. Possibly some segments were cut off by Papa Hobbit sending his attentive listeners off to bed, at which point, ghost-Tolkien lost his link to ME, and only reconnected at some other point in the tale. It was only when he learned the Rivendell segment that he realized that Trotter was a Dunadan. Even then, he kept the name Trotter for a long while. Most likely, the Common Speech name could be translated either way, as Strider or Trotter. When Tolkien thought it was a hobbit, the translation Trotter felt more appropriate. Much later, he rethought the translation, realizing that no one would have nicknamed Aragorn Trotter, and that the proper meaning must have been Strider.

If anything, this mistake provides evidence that Tolkien must have been working from authentic material, because nothing about the hobbit Trotter character fit "Trotter" as a nickname. The character should have had a nickname more like Hiker or Adventurer. The only reason Tolkien could have called him Trotter was because his nickname really was the CS for Strider/Trotter, and Tolkien did the best he could with it, for a hobbit, since Strider would work even less well for a hobbit. Once Tokien realized that Trotter was Aragorn, everything fell into place.

Anyway, this kind of thing can be done all through the legendarium. I had a bunch of insights about Saruman and why Tolkien at first thought that a giant tree would have captured Gandalf instead. Similarly, why Tolkien was so unsure whether Beren was a man or elf. About the different Earendil versions. I don't remember most of them anymore. So much for a long-shuttered filter.

But there is no doubt that Tolkien as a child sat in the Cottage of Lost Play, and that he managed to return to Tol Eressea as a young adult, quite in defiance of usual custom. He found the way through the lane (whatever its name is) when he was a child in (wherever his mother took them), and later, when he spent hours alone in his room, he was traveling to ME either live or in "dreams." That for publication purposes he created an imaginary character Aelfwine - well, what would you do? The rest of BoLT is real, with limited editing. LoTR, of course, was heavily edited, and the Hobbit perhaps even more.

That's all I can spare for a while. I'll check in sometimes to see if this goes anywhere. Thanks for the compliment.

Mindil