Elves visiting Numenor

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

I realize we use the texts we have, so to speak, but I like to remind/annoy that the Numenorean-Bilbo transmission seems to have more "fully" bloomed in the 1960s (the speculated date of AAm* throws me a bit here, but so be it with respect to this text and its Numenorean introduction).

This is a generally excellent post, but I want to poke at this point a little more. If we assume that the Great Tales as they came down to us are Bilbo's translations from Numenorean texts, then how did they know that Finrod was out and about again?

-Messages during the First Age, presumably by dream from Ulmo, but potentially brought back by Luthien and Beren on their rebirth. (Credit for this notion goes, I believe, to Philosopher@Large, though she may have cribbed it from somewhere else.)

-Messages brought during the War of Wrath, by the soldiers involved.

-Finrod himself actually showing up in the War of Wrath. Because the Valar would be utterly dense not to take the one person they have to hand who actually knows the country Out East. ^_^ I realise this is a very implausible notion.

-Messages brought to Numenor by visitors from Eressea, possibly including Finrod himself. This is far and away the simplest transmission. Vardamir Nolimon was a noted scholar, and a credible source for at least some Numenorean Transmission texts due to that; he would totally have asked for any extra details the visiting Eldar could give him.

-Umm... and after that we're left with wizards and Glorfindel. At which point, if someone were making edits, they'd probably note in the Gondolin section that Glorfindel was back, right?

Taking all this into account, it seems likely to me that the Eresseans reported to the Numenoreans (and most likely to Vardamir) that Finrod was back. They didn't say the same about Glorfindel, implying that this was the early Second Age, before he was restored - again, pointing the finger at Vardamir.

hS

[Galin]

I like your approach HS. So far, my own reaction to this detail has been: it gets ink because it "must" be so.

In other words, the matter isn't so much a certainty due to word of mouth, but a conclusion drawn by later writers.
If I recall correctly, there's a specific revision concerning the Lay of Leithian being Numenorean in authorship, and the actual revision to Finrod's dying words ("long rest" and so on) in the Lay Recommenced is very interesting compared to the QS tradition.

For myself, I think this is a good candidate for one of those details that varies due to source, at least QS versus the Lay of Leithian, but I have no compelling evidence that Tolkien agreed with me, or was headed that way.

I forgot to read JRRT's mind about this.


At a glance it seems odd to me that Galadriel should be banned from Aman until late in the Third Age, and Finrod not, given that the emphasis on her ban appears to be a role that Finrod shared. If so, if Finrod "really" stayed long in Mandos, it sort of lines up, in a sense, with the Galadriel case.


But as that idea also burns the other side of my toast . . .


On The Other Hand

In my opinion Finrod arguably proved his case (so to speak) in the Valar's eyes, in life and death (even before being sent to Mandos), at least earlier than his sister, who remained too proud and power hungry at the end of the First Age (despite Melian I guess), learning and changing over the years, until at last the One marches into her realm and she rejects it, passing the great test.

She also remained "too alive" into the Third Age in any case

It makes sense to me, given the heart and mind that Finrod displays in the tales, that a poet could draw this conclusion. To my mind it's difficult to imagine Finrod not being pardoned along with the other Noldor -- while (again) after the War of Wrath, Galadriel proudly answers that she had no wish to return anyway.

There is also this possible approach I think: Finrod says what he believes will happen to him, in humility. Doesn't mean the Valar see things the same way.


Again I'm not against an actual message being brought to Numenor here. As I say I like the approach, I just need to chew on it more, given that I'm old(ish) and set in my Entish ways.


And I realize my notion of "poet's assumption of truth given Finrod's arguable greatness" seems about as thin as a wilwarin wing, but such wings can be fair to look at.