Discussion--Dragons: Good or Evil?

Hello everybody, very new Newbie here [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Born in the Year of the Dragon, and an unconditional admirer of Anne McCaffrey's Pern books, how could I not love dragons? Also, there's a Red Dragon on my National Flag!

Halkaré [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tolkien puts a lot of emphasis on free will, as you'll all notice when key characters with abilities to discern morality are offered choices: Fëanor, Turin, Sauron, Gollum, Saruman and Grima come to mind. It stands to reason then, that Orcs, even Valaraukar and our Dragons need not stay in their "Evil Stereotype" boxes. In theory.

What's interesting is that none of these characters ever makes more than a temporary turn towards the paths of good. Or if one does so (usually a character of the Elven or Human persuasion), the act of choosing good is often performed too late to make a difference.

Evil (Tolkien seems to say) exacts a heavy price from those who live it, taking much wisdom and pain to purge. The Dragons in Tolkien's milieu, ancient , powerful and intelligent as they are, are sadly unable to make that crucial leap.

alright this is my first reply, or anything, and what a perfect topic,......Dragons like Humans can be what they choose, some prefer mischif and death, they like destruction,...although others live to help the Human Race survive, some form long lasting Friendships,......Dragons are there own person,.....its always been there choice

[Lilly Loamsdown]

I like the dragons as portrayd in a short story I read once called 'dragon bait'.
Meaning they'er arogant,have a sort of cruel sense of humor, BUT are not nessasarily evil.
Just kind of disturbing and disconcerting.
"Wizards first rule'?hmmm. Was that by Tad Williams? If so I might have read afew chapters of the third book. Anyway there was a dragon named scarlet in it. i only read the first few chapters,my mom confiscated it read some and anounced that I couldnt read it cause it was disturbing and she couldnt understand it. Parents!

[Morai]

My favorite interpation of Dragons is impatiant, selfish,stubborn yet not evil.
Your mom took it away!!!!!!
*Yells At her mom*
[img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Minyacirith]

Ha! dragons are creatures of evil in Tolkien-ology, so I'm not exactly sure if they have free will or if they're born being nasty critters that eat people and stuff. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] I like Tolkien's classing of dragons, though. There's the winged fire-drakes (Smaug) & the ice-drakes, and the kind with no breath or wings, and ones that live underground. (I think.)Beyond that, I'm not too clear about dragons Tolkien wrote about.
But I, for one, think dragons are (or should be) just as intelligent as humans, or more; they vary according to their body structure and fire-breathing capabilities; and they have the capacity to kick serious tail! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Ravenna]

I like to think of dragons having the capability for both good and evil, (outside Tolkien of course). I'm a complete dragon fanatic, I love them in all shapes and sizes, apart from comic ones. My house is full of them and it's even named Hafod-y-ddraig, or house of dragons.

[Minyacirith]

The early stories about dragons held that they were like giant sluggish lizards. Who knows? maybe some WERE (like in the book The Reluctant Dragon.) But I see them as being large and graceful, having a wingspan of twice their length.

[mystra]

um....... dragons........

scaly creatures........

neither good nor evil.

[Alcerin]

Hmmm...this reminds me of a book i read...

any of you heard of Dragon Milkor the prequil(something about a dragon kyrn)
It's reaaly kewl!



I LOVE dragons!!!!!!!!! they're so beautiful! (western ones i mean)

oh and The voyage of the Dawn Treader by C.S. Lewis has a really funny chapter about a Dragon...did u know that dragon tears actually steamy!!!! poor Eustace [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Meela]

dragons: good or evil?

good.

i apologise for the lack of the 2 million word essay you seem to expect me to write, but im afraid im not an extreme intellectual, like the rest of you.

feel free to delete my pitiful excuse of an answer [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[dragoneyes]

I personally think dragons are wild animals, misunderstood in western culture and revered in Eastern culture because they're big, strong and breathe fire.

[Legolas]

The dragons of Middle-earth were on the evil side, but only because they were pulled over by that side.

But in the words of Tolkien, they are of Eru, and therefore ultimately good. I could go on about this, but I believe it is probably best for you to read Tolkien's thoughts on it:

To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (...) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them. That God would 'tolerate' that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today. There might be other 'makings' all the same which were more like puppets filled (only at a distance) with their maker's mind and will, or ant-like operating under direction of a queen-centre.

It's not necessary to read the entire excerpt (though I can't imagine anyone not becoming better for it), but at least read the line I made bold and the comments surrounding it.

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Minyacirith]

My own dragons exist everywhere in the universe, and were one of the species first created. (In real life, humans were created last.)They are born "fallen" (like us) with the capacity to choose their path in life- Dark or The Light, "up" or "down." I think they should have souls, being sentient beings. In authority, though, dragons are below us.

[RiderOfRohan]

I believe that dragon are just gredy and noy completely evil.

For all of you that are wonderin, the book of Revelations TO John, the last book of the Bible, Portrays Lucifer as a Dragon.

[the witch king]

i agree i think they suffer in the same ways that the 7dwarf lords (with the rings)did greed is there undoing (also you get some who are just plain nasty)

[the witch king]

i think that like men they can be both good and bad

[Minyacirith]

(From page 1) Job 40 and 41 in the Bible is where Behemoth & Leviathan are discussed...

Maybe dragons are malicious to humans but not bad as they see themselves. They might think we're too "conservative."

Morgoth created dragons, right? He didn't have any good purposes for them. If you see dragons as intelligent, then dragons can choose their own way. Otherwise, they exist in Middle-Earth as nothing but dumb lizards trained to be that way.

[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: Minyacirith ]

[Tyler]

Im going to say dragons are neither goor or evil. Thay are more neutral. Thay do what thay want when thay want. I think the only reason thay helped Morgoth was cause thay feared him. Ot on their on free will or maybe thay were offered somehting in return. Thay are the free spirt who care about no one and to some that could seem evil but to otheres it could seem neutral.

Well, first of all i'd like to say i love dragons, but in Tolkiens stories,they're obviously evi. The're like Morgoths pets. But the're still VERY cool.

[Lathriel]

Dragons are either cruel or actually not as evil as people in that particular book/story think. I think that Dragons just do what is best for themselves and are little concerned about what humans do. If they are annoying, well give them a butt scorcher and the humans will leave you alone.

[Orual]

I've always been fascinated by dragons, and they are a major factor in my own fantasy. In my story, they are like any other being--some are good, some are bad, and all have the decision between the two. In Tolkien, of course, they are the villains (though he did make Smaug quite likeable, and he was one of my favorite characters in the Hobbit..."You have nice manners for a thief and a liar." Perfection!). In Fletcher's Dragon's Milk, Flight of the Dragon Kyn, and whatever the third one was, they are misunderstood and mainly good, much like humans. In Wrede's Dealing with Dragons etc., they are, again, quite human-like in their morality. I haven't read Pern (dodges rotten fruit), so I can't say anything about it. However, I've always seen dragons as beautiful, powerful creatures, an essential part of fantasy, especially of the way that I see fantasy.

~*~Orual~*~

[Faye Took]

I love Dragons. I was born in the year of the Dragon as well! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Hehe yep loooove dragons!

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

I really like dragons, although I agree that there are no good dragons in ME. I also have read Dealing With Dragons, it's a good book.

[Darkside]

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for ye are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Tinuviel of Denton]

I'm coming to this a bit late, but anyway:
Dragons are the coolest! I think that they are some of the most beautiful creatures ever. (By the way, Rosa Underhill, Scarlet was NOT a wyvern. She was a red dragon, and anyway, can you blame her for being bad tempered? I mean, come on. Darken Rahl had her egg for goodness' sake. Besides, the thing about "I'm going to eat you someday" was a joke between her and Richard.) One of my favorite books about dragons (and Elves and magic and stuff) is "The Elvenbane." The dragons in that are some of the best. I especially like Kalamadea, Alara, and Keman.
As to are dragons good or evil, that's totally up to the author. Tolkien's dragons are all evil, but that's him.
Dragonheart made me cry.

[Niluial]

I love dragons! They seem nasty and evil but I believe underneath it all dragons are caring and loving. They are so big and the breath fire which I personally would love to do [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]! I think dragons are amazing!!

Can you please tell me what is the good book for learning about dragons I have read The Hobbit and Lord Of The Rings and enjoyed hearing the tales of smaug but i want more so which book should i read???

[The Saucepan Man]

BigEyedDwarfilatti, if you like Dragons, then Glaurung is for you. He's just about the meanest, most malicious and malevolent serpent that you could come across (although alas wingless). You can find him in The Simarillion, most graphically in Of Turin Turamabar. He also re-surfaces in the expansion of Turin's story in the Unfinished Tales.

Oh, and the Silmarillion also tells us of Ancalagon the Black. Although he doesn't feature heavily (two paragraphs in Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath), he is described as "the mightiest of the dragon host". [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

thanks alot sauce pan man i pondered if the silmarillion was worth reading i heard at times i could be long and boring and to factual but i dont what i was thinking i guess if i am gonna be a tolkien fan i have to right well thanks for swaying me.

[ April 26, 2003: Message edited by: BigEyedDwarfilatti ]

[Lathriel]

there is a trilogy involving dragons which is fun to read. they are written by Susan Fletcher and the first one is called dragon's milk. It is all about dragons and I enjoyed reading them.

[Frodo 007]

I adore Dragons!!!They are very beautiful creatures and they can be either good or evil, it also depends on their owner and how they get treated!!!

Prepare for a long rant now. ^.^; As per Dragons, their being my special object of interest and study, and a few of my views on them, but not all.. that would take too long and would quite possibly be a little hard to swallow for the more material-minded..

One important thing I've noticed about Tolkien is that his stories and mythologies are very much drawn on themes present in other mythologies and legends. His Dragons draw from legend in many ways as do other things (for example, the creation of the world using some kind of sound). Although it seems to be unclear just what exactly is the origin of the spirits of Dragons. Maiar perhaps, I saw it discussed in another thread.

The place of Dragons in real legend is unmistakable; they are revered either as powerful and wise beings, or feared and reviled as monsters. Their being feared and reviled is, more or less, something of a Christian addition to legend, as Christians did a lot of destroying/changing/adding to stories and legends. Dragons were an important symbol to the old pagan religions and hence were dubbed 'evil' along with other pagan symbols. Thus explaining the look of Satan as a Dragon in the bible.. although, Dragons do exist otherwise in the bible (Leviathan for example) and there are of course many other stories of Dragons in many different cultures. Also pertaining to the fact that there are stories of Dragons in every culture, including cultures that had no contact with the others. In Asian and Celtic cultures especially, Dragons were respected and revered. Dragons are also a most certain archetype in the human psyche, an archetype of power. Whether a wise power or a power to be feared is up to the individual.

One pretty common role of the Dragon in legend is that OF creator, or original being, and indeed that theme has been taken up by a lot of fantasy works. I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with the story of Tiamat; and there are variations on that story in other cultures. The Dragon, being the essential and absolute beginning power of primeval chaos. Usually, this original Dragon is slain and then, the other gods and men are able to create order in the world. So Dragons are most often represented as beings of chaos. Humans, being quite used to the order and unchanging nature of the physical world, differ so greatly in this perspective from Dragons and their tendency to chaos, tend to see them as evil. Generally, I see these two types of minds.. those leaning towards order and those towards chaos, to be relatively incompatible. Each would endanger the other's way of life, hence the fear. While chaos is not strictly evil it is often thought to be so.

Another very good point brought up in an earlier post was this quote: "Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good." This is quite an exceptional viewpoint. Be it the work of a God or not, the world itself does exist within a universe, and because all things within the universe are part of that universe, we can assume that, even in the face of a chaotic and constantly changing existence or universe, all things will be playing a part. Good and evil to me seem to be interpretations based on the fears and needs of people. If something is a part of a world, it is a part of it, and while you can label it with good or evil, that does not change the fact that it belongs to that world in some way.

Dragons, as I have seen anyway, while they may have a tendency toward chaos or other traits or states of mind, are indeed individuals, intelligent ones, not beasts in any sense. They seem to have a deep understanding of things but their minds are so alien that perhaps to classify them in human terms is a bit unfair. Can we truly understand motivations that are so far removed from our own? I know it's extremely hard for me to understand what motivations some types of people. Dragon motivations, while close to home, are nevertheless still a bit elusive to me. Again, that would depend on the Dragon. This difference in mindset is probably one of the factors that sets Dragons to an extreme indifference to the affairs of humans. We don't care too much about how ants live their lives do we? And if we do, it's a purely scholary interest. I would think that it might be the same for Dragons who have an interest in the human experience. It's something different from their own. And in addition, most of us don't care a whit about crushing an ant or six.

My intepretation tends to be that Dragons remain in the human psyche because of a distant memory. Not dinosaurs or extinct animals, but a distinct race, here for some purpose or other, which probably, due to growing mistrust and a definate deviation of common interest, left from this world in some way or another. Whether they were slain in physical form to return to where-ever spirits go or whether they actively chose to abandon those forms, or indeed whether they ever had them in the first place?

Okay, this is getting long and rambly. o.O; Anyways, there were a couple assertations about Dragons in the 'real world' that I saw-- one saying they were wicked, and one saying they were just animals. Dragons are commonly considered to be fantasy creatures. Because of evidence and my own experience, I believe (know, if you like) that they are much more than that. There is the fact of their widespread influence in psyche and legend. And then there is the fact that I have seen them.

I also saw a post with different Dragon types-- which just brings to mind to me my point about order and chaos ^.^; Humans! Trying to classify a chaotic being! Dragons as far as I have seen can look like anything they want; there is such a wide variety of shape and form and color and design. It almost seems to be a matter of mood and personal taste, and not a product of evolution or any other such stricture. This too, I think, reflects something of the reality of Dragons and their chaotic nature.

Okay, I think I'm going to shut up now. In terms of book recommendations; Elvenbane had a lot of draconic seeming truth, but the Dragons in my opinion acted far too human. The dancing in the thunderstorms bit struck me dumb though. Because it was in that exact activity that I saw them one time.

Dragonsbane by Barbara Hambly I HIGHLY recommend. It is by far the best portrayal of a Dragon character I've ever read in a fictional book. Although I would certainly have to call Smaug a close second. ^.^ As for other Dragon books, the Dragon Circle trilogy by Craig Shaw Gardner is quite good and Song in the Silence by Elizabeth Kerner is good as well..

[Phervasaion]

I believe that dragons can play a strong role in almost every fantasy world as they are wondrous creatures. I personally believe that some dragons are good and that some dragons are bad. If someone says that a dragon is evil and they are going too slay it, then the dragon will obviously try too defend itself and kill the dragon slayer. But this does not mean the dragon is evil as it was simply defending itself and its home.

[Dragon Elf odin Ragnorock]

I would have to say a dragon could be good or evil which ever it's master says to do it dose. Almost like a very big and dangerus traind dog.

Why would Dragons be evil?

I see dragons being evil in the same way I see humans as being evil. Dragons exist to serve themselves. Not always for greed, but just for pleasure in life. If you think of dragons as evil, compare them to yourself, and see if you're as evil as the dragon. Dragons are neutral, not winding themselves up in the affairs of others. Don't you wish more ppl were like that? "A dragon should be not measured by the length of his tail, nor the amount of his worldly possesions, niether by his actions. A dragon should be judged by how he tastes."
-Me, as far as I know

That's all I have to say.