Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

Nienor and Tar-Miriel survived.

The text only states that Nienor jumped into Teiglin, not that it killed her. Likewise, the text only says that Tar-Miriel was swallowed by the waves, not that it killed her. And as we know, Ulmo has a penchant for saving good people when it is in his power to do so. He saved Voronwe from the shipwreck, after all.

And in both of those cases, he had the power to do so. He saved them both, enabling them to start new lives somewhere else.

Pity that Turin chose not to jump into the river himself. If he had, he would have been saved too.

[Galadriel55]

I don't think Nienor would want to be saved, and as such I don't think she was. Tar-Miriel however... *puts on fanfic glasses*

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Nienor and Tar-Miriel survived.

The text only states that Nienor jumped into Teiglin, not that it killed her. Likewise, the text only says that Tar-Miriel was swallowed by the waves, not that it killed her. And as we know, Ulmo has a penchant for saving good people when it is in his power to do so. He saved Voronwe from the shipwreck, after all.

And in both of those cases, he had the power to do so. He saved them both, enabling them to start new lives somewhere else.

Pity that Turin chose not to jump into the river himself. If he had, he would have been saved too.

I think I can drag myself back awake for this.

Nienor? I'm dubious. Ulmo didn't have a lot of power over rivers. It also kind of ruins the downer ending - which, I get that's what you're going for, but Tolkien went pretty hard into it.

But, assume it's true... where would she go? Ulmo has a habit of rescuing people to help their kin - look at Elwing, but also Voronwe. We know that Nienor didn't go anywhere near Hurin or Morwen, so what would she do?

Well... she's the closest thing to a Lord of the House of Hador still in existence, bar her parents. The Hadorians are still seriously oppressed; in the aftermath of Turin's visit and Aerin's death, we're told things got even worse. We're also told that when Hurin visited Dor-Lomin after his release, he found none of his kin there.

We're also told that, according to Gondorian theory, the Northmen (== Rohirrim) were descended from Hadorians who refused the call to Numenor. Fitting these together, could Nienor have pulled a Moses, and led (a portion of) the enslaved remnants of her people away to the East? The idea of 'not the land, but the people' being important seems to fit pretty well with her character, and while we know that Ulmo believes 'the last hope of the Noldor lieth in the West', he may have different views of the Edain.

As for Tar-Miriel, her rescue seems a lot more likely: there's not such an obvious downer ending to the Akallabeth (most of the Good Guys get away, after all!), and she is explicitly swallowed by the Sea.

Perhaps, rather than a bird (a la Elwing), Ulmo would have transformed her into some other creature: a dolphin or something. And then... what? It's impossible to believe she wouldn't have found her way back to the Faithful if she'd gone to Middle-earth, and the idea of her being stolen away to Ulmo's palace or something isn't very Tolkien. So... Valinor?

There's a couple of options for what the Queen of Numenor could get up to in the Undying Lands. Firstly, if Amandil made it there, she could just sort of hang out with him. She'd live out her life in peace, as a sort of reward for her hardship - kind of like Frodo. But nothing too momentous.

Alternately... she's the Queen of Numenor. And there just so happens to be an entire army of Numenorean soldiers sleeping in the former Pass of Light, waiting for the End of Days. Do we really think the Valar would trust Pharazon the Usurper to lead them against Morgoth? Nah; they'd love to have a decent, Iluvatar-fearing ruler for their weird undead mortal army. I can just see them putting Tar-Miriel to sleep at their head, clad in the finest jewelled armour Aule can make. When they wake up, Pharazon can be cabin-boy for his cousin, Tar-Miriel the Gleaming, as she sails to war against the Enemy of the World.

And yes, they can meet up with Turin and plan the battle together. "Eonwe? Tulkas? I suppose they have their uses, but this is going to take skill..."

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think I can drag myself back awake for this.

Nienor? I'm dubious. Ulmo didn't have a lot of power over rivers. It also kind of ruins the downer ending - which, I get that's what you're going for, but Tolkien went pretty hard into it.

But, assume it's true... where would she go? Ulmo has a habit of rescuing people to help their kin - look at Elwing, but also Voronwe. We know that Nienor didn't go anywhere near Hurin or Morwen, so what would she do?

Well... she's the closest thing to a Lord of the House of Hador still in existence, bar her parents. The Hadorians are still seriously oppressed; in the aftermath of Turin's visit and Aerin's death, we're told things got even worse. We're also told that when Hurin visited Dor-Lomin after his release, he found none of his kin there.

We're also told that, according to Gondorian theory, the Northmen (== Rohirrim) were descended from Hadorians who refused the call to Numenor. Fitting these together, could Nienor have pulled a Moses, and led (a portion of) the enslaved remnants of her people away to the East? The idea of 'not the land, but the people' being important seems to fit pretty well with her character, and while we know that Ulmo believes 'the last hope of the Noldor lieth in the West', he may have different views of the Edain.

As for Tar-Miriel, her rescue seems a lot more likely: there's not such an obvious downer ending to the Akallabeth (most of the Good Guys get away, after all!), and she is explicitly swallowed by the Sea.

Perhaps, rather than a bird (a la Elwing), Ulmo would have transformed her into some other creature: a dolphin or something. And then... what? It's impossible to believe she wouldn't have found her way back to the Faithful if she'd gone to Middle-earth, and the idea of her being stolen away to Ulmo's palace or something isn't very Tolkien. So... Valinor?

There's a couple of options for what the Queen of Numenor could get up to in the Undying Lands. Firstly, if Amandil made it there, she could just sort of hang out with him. She'd live out her life in peace, as a sort of reward for her hardship - kind of like Frodo. But nothing too momentous.

Alternately... she's the Queen of Numenor. And there just so happens to be an entire army of Numenorean soldiers sleeping in the former Pass of Light, waiting for the End of Days. Do we really think the Valar would trust Pharazon the Usurper to lead them against Morgoth? Nah; they'd love to have a decent, Iluvatar-fearing ruler for their weird undead mortal army. I can just see them putting Tar-Miriel to sleep at their head, clad in the finest jewelled armour Aule can make. When they wake up, Pharazon can be cabin-boy for his cousin, Tar-Miriel the Gleaming, as she sails to war against the Enemy of the World.

And yes, they can meet up with Turin and plan the battle together. "Eonwe? Tulkas? I suppose they have their uses, but this is going to take skill..."

hS

I like your analysis and your idea. Turin and Tar-Miriel, Slayers of Morgoth, Saviors of the World.

That one must be written out.

[Urwen]

Oh, and....what of Hurin? Like Tar-Miriel, he too was taken by the sea.....

And it is writ

[Urwen]

Lo, I got inspired by your blog to make my own

[Urwen]

Another song that fits with Golodhrim and Maeglin

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Oh, and....what of Hurin? Like Tar-Miriel, he too was taken by the sea.....

Hurin... well, unlike Elwing, he doesn't fit entirely into the 'innocent victim' mode. He was captured while fighting, and when he was released he (accidentally) revealed Gondolin, (deliberately) gave Thingol a cursed horde, and (totally deliberately) brought civil war to Brethil. I think that takes him outside the 'Ulmo's tragic innocents' archetype (which would include Tar-Miriel, and arguably Nienor as well), so I don't know that he would be saved.

And if he was... what would Ulmo do with him? He has nothing to go back to - he's already passed through Dor-Lomin and left it again. He can't go to Eressea like Frodo would - the way, so to speak, is shut.

Hurin, like his daughter, killed himself deliberately because he had nothing left to live for. Elwing and Miriel, in contrast, died because of the actions of others.

Now, if you'd said Amroth and Nimrodel, you might have a case... she does end up having a river named for her, after all.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Hurin... well, unlike Elwing, he doesn't fit entirely into the 'innocent victim' mode. He was captured while fighting, and when he was released he (accidentally) revealed Gondolin, (deliberately) gave Thingol a cursed horde, and (totally deliberately) brought civil war to Brethil. I think that takes him outside the 'Ulmo's tragic innocents' archetype (which would include Tar-Miriel, and arguably Nienor as well), so I don't know that he would be saved.

And if he was... what would Ulmo do with him? He has nothing to go back to - he's already passed through Dor-Lomin and left it again. He can't go to Eressea like Frodo would - the way, so to speak, is shut.

Hurin, like his daughter, killed himself deliberately because he had nothing left to live for. Elwing and Miriel, in contrast, died because of the actions of others.

Now, if you'd said Amroth and Nimrodel, you might have a case... she does end up having a river named for her, after all.

hS

Except that they're all victims.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Except that they're all victims.

Yes; but so is everyone. That's what the Marring of Arda is. But Hurin actively threw himself into his fate, by battle and then by his actions after his release. Elwing was just living her life, and Tar-Miriel was forced into hers. Neither of them played an active role in bringing about their own misery.

Does that mean Hurin should have done differently? Certainly not in the Nirnaeth! But it does mean he chose to accept the potential consequences of his actions, whereas Elwing and Tar-Miriel didn't have that choice.

We're building a house of cards on a single example here (since I don't think Voronwe can be included - he was saved because Ulmo needed a messenger), but I think 'Ulmo saves those who had no way to avoid their fate' is a decent theory. (It's also what Earendil's embassy was based on: it's not the Exile Noldor he pleads for mostly, it's the Elves and Men who had no part in the Fall, but still suffer its consequences.)

hS