Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

Do you think that Elves of Gondolin will hold a grudge? As in, will they try to mob-lynch the subject of their ire upon rebirth?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

P.S: I read your theory (the one where Maglor killed Maedhros) and I have mixed feelings about it.

Ohhh yes, that one. I really like that one. ^_^ Unlike a lot of my theories, I managed to stuff that idea with enough symbolism that it feels like something Tolkien could have written.

(Note that I'm not saying he did. Unlike the Not-So-Crackpot Theories, which go on the idea that Tolkien didn't tell us everything, the Filthy Liars section plays with the idea of Tolkien as an unreliable narrator. Much as I enjoy the theory itself, Tolkien was very clear on what happened to the Silmarils.)

Originally Posted by Urwen

Do you think that Elves of Gondolin will hold a grudge? As in, will they try to mob-lynch the subject of their ire upon rebirth?

I'd sort of assume Mandos' judgement would take into account whether his guests had vengeance in their hearts, and not let them out until they were healed. So anyone who needed to be reembodied wouldn't hold a grudge. But... not all the elves of Gondolin died. I think at least a couple of the Lords of the City made it out, even (on checking, Tuor and Galdor are the only lords of houses to get past the Second Kinslaying, but even so).

But... assuming that Maeglin is released immediately after the end of the Third Age (this is amazingly generous; personally I doubt he's coming out at all), that's still over six thousand years for the survivors of Gondolin to hold a grudge. Can you imagine still caring about something after what's basically the entire length of human civilisation - and caring about it enough to commit murder, and get yourself brought before the Valar Themselves?

I don't imagine they'd particularly like Maeglin, at least at first. If the House of Finwe accepts him as one of their own, they could probably rehabilitate him - it's hard to imagine the survivors muttering against overmuch him once Turgon has publically forgiven him. But I don't think lynching is particularly likely.

THAT SAID... what about before reembodiment? I've taken the position before that the Halls of Mandos are a fairly solitary environment, but Tolkien gives us an example of quite an involved interaction between deceased elves: Finwe and Miriel, who pretty much put together a legal case in the Halls. So apparently they can meet up, and even disagree; so yeah, dead!Maeglin would most definitely be shunned, even assuming no form of pseudo-physical interaction was possible.

hS

[Urwen]

Did you see my new parodies? They pretty much play up on that idea.

[Urwen]

Also, what is it about Turin that makes people love him?

Most of the CoH characters love him. Fans love him.

Also......


"Thus with words have I slain one that I loved."

[Urwen]

I read your opinion about Tar-Miriel and I can't help but cry. It is so, so heartbreaking.....

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I read your opinion about Tar-Miriel and I can't help but cry. It is so, so heartbreaking.....

I, however, don't agree with your description of Erendis, because I can't help but be mad at her. Even when her husband revealed the real reason for his voyages, she still acted as if she were the injured party. She was perfectly willing to let Sauron run amok unchecked, spreading terror and remaining a threat, because to her, having her husband by her side was far more important, amirite?

Basically, I see her as a selfish individual who was perfectly willing to see the world burn as long as she got what she wanted.

People like Maeglin are vilified for putting their own desires ahead of the well-being of the world as a whole, and yet when someone like Erendis does the same thing (more or less), it's all perfectly kosher.

I feel it's a tad unfair.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I, however, don't agree with your description of Erendis, because I can't help but be mad at her. Even when her husband revealed the real reason for his voyages, she still acted as if she were the injured party. She was perfectly willing to let Sauron run amok unchecked, spreading terror and remaining a threat, because to her, having her husband by her side was far more important, amirite?

Basically, I see her as a selfish individual who was perfectly willing to see the world burn as long as she got what she wanted.

People like Maeglin are vilified for putting their own desires ahead of the well-being of the world as a whole, and yet when someone like Erendis does the same thing (more or less), it's all perfectly kosher.

I feel it's a tad unfair.

Ah, is this in the Strong Female Characters thing? Bear in mind that falls under the Not-So-Crackpot Theories section: ie, unlike the Deep Places list (which tries to be evidence-based and explicitly state when something is a stretch), it's allowed to be a bit on the biased and weird side. (That one comes right above the one that claims, straightfaced, that Nienor exists because Tolkien wanted people to paint nudes. O.o)

Erendis is messed up. So is Aldarion. He doesn't care about her much at all, and she is insanely jealous of him. Much like Maeglin, even if the specific inciting incident hadn't occured, she would have found something to get angry about. Take a look at how badly she messed up her daughter - and, by extension and example, all three of the later Ruling Queens - to show this.

(Of course, this still makes her a strong character...)

As for Tar-Miriel: she was the Queen, and I refuse to accept the usurper's claim.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Also, what is it about Turin that makes people love him?

Most of the CoH characters love him. Fans love him.

Fans - well, it's hard not to love a tragic hero. We are fascinated by them.

COH characters - Turin isn't just rude and impatient. He is also honourable, passionate, fair, strong, dependable. He is a good person, and he tries to do good. He stands up for what he believes in. He does amazing things, he has endured many challenges that few other people could endure. He inspires others with his strength and his vision. So, whether the characters like him or not, it's hard for them not to respect him.

[Urwen]

Do you think that some of the other characters will support him during the Final Battle?

He is the one who will bring down Morgoth, after all. But Morgoth is this huge, humongous being, with a hammer that weighs at least a ton. Someone who can kill a person with one stomp of his humongous feet.

Bottom line is, he'll need help. Some armor, for instance, and some protective enchantments.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Do you think that some of the other characters will support him during the Final Battle?

Why wouldn't they? Except for whatever metaphysical limitations may occur, I don't think Turin would stand alone.

As for the limitations, I'm really not sure how and in what form Turin will return to this world to defeat Morgoth. Did his fea never leave the world, never accepted the Gift, waiting for the ultimate conclusion and closure of his story? Did it come back from beyond the Circles of the World? Where did his body come from? Are others able to come back the same way or is it just him? I don't know/remember very much about the Final Battle, so it's hard to answer.

ETA: But I don't think the reason for Turin's victory will be his prowess in combat, or his weapons and armour. I think all these things will only be an external manifestation of the battle of wills. Turin, finally able to direct all of the bitterness accumulated over his life straight at the cause of his misery, will not hold anything back, and I think Morgoth would be a little overwhelmed by the amount of emotional force directed at him. Turin is a very passionate character who tends to internalize his emotions like a sponge, and in COH the overflow always spills out negatively. I think in the Battle they get to be squeezed out of the sponge and directed at Morgoth, and after that fight Turin would find peace.