Why Imrazor the Numenorean?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I mean, why was he any more Numenorean than any of his contemporaries in the Gondorian nobility? It's true that Dol Amroth's line was founded before the Exile--- but that was long centuries before the TA 1980s!

Is that Mithrellas with a union of elf and man an indication that somehow he was exceptional? Or does the converse apply? I've often wondered about what was at work when it was a union of the two races, and why it was always, in the first generation of them, that always a female of Elven race was with a male of the Second Born.

Though with Imrazor, not a very happy union, it seemed, and he seemed to have a controlling temperament, from memory. Makes me think of Maeglin and Eol, with the entrapping lair of the treehouse, and as such, perhaps it was the case that Imrazor was a captor of a vulnerable woman, of the First Born.

I'm not sure he was an exceptional Numenorean, therefore, if it is the case that you infer that, from the little we know about his temperament.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Perhaps generations of living on Dol Amroth had a similar effect on Imrazor.

This sounds all the more plausible in light of Tolkien's note (in UT): They were a family of the Faithful who had sailed from Númenor before the Downfall and had settled in the land of Belfalas, between the mouths of Ringló and Gilrain, with a stronghold upon the high promontory of Dol Amroth (named after the last King of Lórien). If Dol Amroth was a pre-Downfall settlement, it could reasonably claim to be 'more Numenorean' than Gondor proper, which was after all settled by Gondorian refugees. I can certainly imagine a certain amount of isolation - and, heck, why not occasional (during times of weak kings) interbreeding with the other pre-Downfall Numenorean state, Umbar? They're both maritime nations ("oh, pardon me, Your Majesty, I mean of course 'loyal subordinate princedoms of Gondor'"), so they had a fair amount in common, at least when they weren't actively killing each other.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Is that Mithrellas with a union of elf and man an indication that somehow he was exceptional? Or does the converse apply? I've often wondered about what was at work when it was a union of the two races, and why it was always, in the first generation of them, that always a female of Elven race was with a male of the Second Born.

I vaguely recall a statement that the bodies of mortal women wouldn't actually be able to bear a half-elven child. I... have no idea where that came from, though.

There is, of course, the case of Aegnor and Andreth, where she was the mortal. Aegnor refused to wed her due to there being a war on (even if it was a cold war at that point), but there's no indication that there were more serious problems.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Though with Imrazor, not a very happy union, it seemed, and he seemed to have a controlling temperament, from memory. Makes me think of Maeglin and Eol, with the entrapping lair of the treehouse, and as such, perhaps it was the case that Imrazor was a captor of a vulnerable woman, of the First Born.

I'm not sure he was an exceptional Numenorean, therefore, if it is the case that you infer that, from the little we know about his temperament.

And that... makes a worrying amount of sense. Mithrellas, along with Aredhel, is I think one of only two wives to actively run away from their husbands in Middle-earth (plus maybe Miriel, if 'I'd rather stay dead/oh, now you're dead I'll go back to living' counts). That says pretty terrible things about Imrazor, and the idea that she was pretty much a captive rings true.

Over in another thread you made mention of Gilmith, daughter of Imrazor, and that set me to thinking: did the children of Imrazor have the same Choice as Elrond, Elros, Arwen and her siblings? We know that Galador was mortal, but his sister could well not have been.

How is that Choice made, anyway? Indications from the canon seem to be that 'you get what you marry' - Arwen accepted mortality when she married Aragorn, Elros of course married a mortal, while Elrond and his sons apparently put off marrying for quite some time, and Celebrian was an elf. So could Gilmith have simply remained unwed, and attained immortality that way?

(Line of thinking partly inspired by the lovely image used for Gilmith on Tolkien Gateway, taken from Lady Elleth of deviantArt.)

hS

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

This sounds all the more plausible in light of Tolkien's note (in UT): They were a family of the Faithful who had sailed from Númenor before the Downfall and had settled in the land of Belfalas, between the mouths of Ringló and Gilrain, with a stronghold upon the high promontory of Dol Amroth (named after the last King of Lórien). If Dol Amroth was a pre-Downfall settlement, it could reasonably claim to be 'more Numenorean' than Gondor proper, which was after all settled by Gondorian refugees. I can certainly imagine a certain amount of isolation - and, heck, why not occasional (during times of weak kings) interbreeding with the other pre-Downfall Numenorean state, Umbar? They're both maritime nations ("oh, pardon me, Your Majesty, I mean of course 'loyal subordinate princedoms of Gondor'"), so they had a fair amount in common, at least when they weren't actively killing each other.



I vaguely recall a statement that the bodies of mortal women wouldn't actually be able to bear a half-elven child. I... have no idea where that came from, though.

There is, of course, the case of Aegnor and Andreth, where she was the mortal. Aegnor refused to wed her due to there being a war on (even if it was a cold war at that point), but there's no indication that there were more serious problems.



And that... makes a worrying amount of sense. Mithrellas, along with Aredhel, is I think one of only two wives to actively run away from their husbands in Middle-earth (plus maybe Miriel, if 'I'd rather stay dead/oh, now you're dead I'll go back to living' counts). That says pretty terrible things about Imrazor, and the idea that she was pretty much a captive rings true.

Over in another thread you made mention of Gilmith, daughter of Imrazor, and that set me to thinking: did the children of Imrazor have the same Choice as Elrond, Elros, Arwen and her siblings? We know that Galador was mortal, but his sister could well not have been.

How is that Choice made, anyway? Indications from the canon seem to be that 'you get what you marry' - Arwen accepted mortality when she married Aragorn, Elros of course married a mortal, while Elrond and his sons apparently put off marrying for quite some time, and Celebrian was an elf. So could Gilmith have simply remained unwed, and attained immortality that way?

(Line of thinking partly inspired by the lovely image used for Gilmith on Tolkien Gateway, taken from Lady Elleth of deviantArt.)

hS

I don't know what to make of the half elves not explicitly covered by Mandos's comments about Elwing, Earendil and cousins. I saw somewhere on another thread that these half-elves somehow were not covered by the Doom of Mandos as he spoke to the half-elven.

Perhaps someone can inform us.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I don't know what to make of the half elves not explicitly covered by Mandos's comments about Elwing, Earendil and cousins. I saw somewhere on another thread that these half-elves somehow were not covered by the Doom of Mandos as he spoke to the half-elven.

Perhaps someone can inform us.

Hmm. HoME V contains a slightly longer version of Manwe's judgement on Earendil and Elwing than is found in the Silm (emphasis mine):

Then Manwe gave judgement and he said: 'To Earendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Earendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'

What's interesting is that Manwe explicitly states that any with mortal blood are mortal, unless he says otherwise. That means that Dior, Elured, and Elurin were fully mortal, and that Earendil and Elwing were mortal until they reached Valinor (which may explain the Numenorean idea that going to Valinor makes you immortal). Mithrellas' children would also be mortal.

But does this apply to the final Silm? I don't think its removal was a Christopher edit - I think it was a change made by Tolkien himself. But it could still just have been for conciseness... or to avoid any undue quibbles of 'then why did Arwen get to be mortal?'. Because the text as written is explicit: her father gets a choice, she doesn't. She'd either be an Elf (if 'under which kindred they shall be judged' indicates that they fully become that kindred) or mortal (if 'all those who have the blood of mortal Men' still covers her), but not get to choose between.

hS

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Hmm. HoME V contains a slightly longer version of Manwe's judgement on Earendil and Elwing than is found in the Silm (emphasis mine):



What's interesting is that Manwe explicitly states that any with mortal blood are mortal, unless he says otherwise. That means that Dior, Elured, and Elurin were fully mortal, and that Earendil and Elwing were mortal until they reached Valinor (which may explain the Numenorean idea that going to Valinor makes you immortal). Mithrellas' children would also be mortal.

But does this apply to the final Silm? I don't think its removal was a Christopher edit - I think it was a change made by Tolkien himself. But it could still just have been for conciseness... or to avoid any undue quibbles of 'then why did Arwen get to be mortal?'. Because the text as written is explicit: her father gets a choice, she doesn't. She'd either be an Elf (if 'under which kindred they shall be judged' indicates that they fully become that kindred) or mortal (if 'all those who have the blood of mortal Men' still covers her), but not get to choose between.

hS

That's a fantastic quote. It's pretty clear, in actual conditions, and I'd be curious to hear from Morthoron about it. It seems, doesn't it, that the choice goes to a son. So, though I am wondering if that was because we had Elrond and Elros around by then?

In any case, it's interesting then that we have an exception, or some form of variation to the Decree. Perhaps, the Twins (did they die in the forest?) were, by prayer or ritual, in a Communion with Manwe going to get the same Choice as Arwen?

It's a great quotation, so I'm going to add the post you cited, into a summary thread.

Cheers
Ivrieniel

[William Cloud Hicklin]

AIUI, without looking, the final section of the published Silmarillion, from Earendil's arrival in Valinor on, was copied directly from the portion at the end of the Qenta which Tolkien (for reasons unknown) revised ca 1937. However, CT reworked this material fairly heavily, in part because certain clearly obsolete concepts like the Children of the Valar were still present, but also because things were stated explicitly which he wasn't sure hadn't been modified by the LR or later thinking-- such as the "one drop rule" for Men.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

AIUI, without looking, the final section of the published Silmarillion, from Earendil's arrival in Valinor on, was copied directly from the portion at the end of the Qenta which Tolkien (for reasons unknown) revised ca 1937. However, CT reworked this material fairly heavily, in part because certain clearly obsolete concepts like the Children of the Valar were still present, but also because things were stated explicitly which he wasn't sure hadn't been modified by the LR or later thinking-- such as the "one drop rule" for Men.

Can confirm this (I Have My Books With Me(TM)). So once again we run afoul of Tolkien's inability to write as far as the tale of Earendil.

hS

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Is that Mithrellas with a union of elf and man an indication that somehow he was exceptional? Or does the converse apply? I've often wondered about what was at work when it was a union of the two races, and why it was always, in the first generation of them, that always a female of Elven race was with a male of the Second Born.……

Perhaps because Elves were nobler in origin and powers than Men, so that such marriages “enhanced” the non-Elvish spouse ?

The female spouse in a trans-Racial union seems to help that union produce exceptional offspring:

Maia + Elf = Luthien
Elf + Man in Gondolin = Earendil
Elf + Man of Numenorean descent in Gondor = ? Likewise, presumably.