Tidbits of Curiosity

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

As for Niniel... when someone comes to you with literally no memory of anything, and you take personal care of them in restoring them to adult functioning, it seems pretty obvious that they're going to effectively imprint on you. I'm not sure how much this is the case (the wiki pretty much claims the women of Brethil + Brandir were responsible for her care), but if it is, asking someone who's that dependent on you to marry you is actually kinda skeevy.

But yes: Turin's decisions surrounding Nienor were actually good, knowing what he knew. Had he not gotten himself knocked out, he could have faced real consequences that weren't his fault...

... because they were his sister's. She's under Morgoth's curse too, and her mind-wiping came about because she tried to take on a dragon face to face. That was her bad decision.

Well, I guess you could say that it takes two to make a bad marriage...

Originally Posted by Hui

I'm not sure I agree. Turin was great at getting people to follow him, but abysmally terrible at choosing where to lead them. The outlaws died because Turin led them to camp with someone who utterly hated them; Nargothrond died because he preferred open battle to stealth. The one time people refused to follow him, his attack on Glaurung was 100% successful.

A charismatic, brave, and strong leader who leads you into disaster every time sounds like one of the worst things you could have, actually.

Again, though, you are judging the decisions by the result. Oh course, if we know ahead of time that the result will be bad, we won't make that choice. Try making those choices in Turin's place knowing what he knows and not what you know.

Let me give you a couple examples of alternative histories. Nargothrond continues its policy of secrecy, doesn't stick its head out. Doriath falls, Gondolin falls, eventually Morgoth concentrates his forces on Nargothrond which eventually also falls, and so what was the point of its existence? To prolong the suffering? Or to make an actual change in the war against Morgoth? Or how about this. The battle at Tumhalad goes somewhat differently; Glaurung is defeated at Nargothrond; Elves and Men rally to Nargothrond; their forces grow and push back Morgoth and the Easterlings, perhaps liberating Hithlum, perhaps Dorthonion, perhaps even beyond - who knows, perhaps knocking on his very door.

We as readers tend to judge events based on the outcome, and with the knowledge that Morgoth cannot be defeated with local efforts; we are too focused on the necessity Earendil and the forces of the Valar. But Turin doesn't know about Earendil. No one knows about Earendil. Earendil himself doesn't know about his importance. So I maintain that we allow for multiple possible outcomes for Turin's decisions.

I guess the big problem specifically with Nargothrond was that there ended up a Man, with Mannish ambitions, leading a group of Elves, with Elvish thinking. Turin was not the only Man in the surrounding events who would choose risk over comfort so as to be able to share in the struggles of their homeland and make an impact against Morgoth. An Elf might have infinite patience and possibly an idea that eventually things might be different; and Elf might hope to outlive Morgoth at least until the tides turn. A Man must make his impact when he can, and the Elvish secrecy naturally seems like strength wasted unless you know what you're saving the strength for. We see the thought of fighting while you can in wiser Men than Turin, and the idea makes sense. Elves hope for a distant future, Men rely on themselves to shape that future. Maybe it's not a good idea to mix the two in the first place. Maybe Nargothrond is not the best place to enact this desire. Maybe Turin has too concentrated a theme of making his own fate. But I cannot call it an absolutely bad idea. I mean, with the same logic we should call the Nirnaeth a terrible idea and name Maedhros a terrible strategist. A Battle that meant to succeed, and had all the potential to succeed (assuming we don't look ahead to Earendil etc) - but we judge it by its failure rather than its potential. Maedhros had a reason to act as he did, and so did all the participants. Judging decisions by their outcomes only works when you already know the outcome; I am looking at the decision process a priori, so to speak.


Edit: crossed with Urwen. It's a busy thread!