Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Come to think of it, that is an interesting theme for next discussion. Do you think us in the modern world are reincarnations/descendants of Tolkinese characters? If so, whom do you think you are reincarnation/descendant of?

My answer is in my previous post.

Well, obviously I'm a Noldo of Aman who journeyed with Finrod to Middle-earth, got killed in the Bragollach, and wound up coming back over here once I was let out of Mandos. That aside, while the canon allows for reincarnation of Dwarven kings (Durin, at least), and some versions allow for elves to be 'reborn in their children [read: descendents?]' rather than just rehoused, I feel like the most coherent version of Middle-earth canon don't include (non-Dwarvish) reincarnation.

As for descendents... let's play Middle-earth Genealogical Correlations!

Lining up the maps of Middle-earth and Europe has never been easy, but they generally place Gondor somewhere down on the Mediterranean, with Mordor falling in the mountainous regions around Romania and Serbia. If you want to claim descent from Aragorn, you'd better have Italian heritage! (Which, admittedly, most of Europe does, because Romans.) (It doesn't seem like the restored Arnor lasted long enough to make a significant impact on the local population makeup.)

The Misty Mountains probably fall somewhere in Germany (which, you'll note, is where Mirkwood - sorry, the Black Forest - is still found). If your ancestors are from east of there, they're Northmen - descendents of the ancestors of the Rohirrim, or the people of Dale. The Gondorians believed the Northmen were related to the Third House of the Edain. This, basically, is where blond/es come from. Some of their line wound up further south, on the north slopes of the White Mountains, as Rohan - it seems probable that this means the Alps, so you're looking at south Germany, Austria, Switzerland.

France, Spain, Portugal, and Britain are the homes of the Dunlendings and their kin - descendents of the Second House of the Edain. This is where the folk of Bree came from. In the former three areas this is still the dominant strain; in Britain it's been leavened with a good dose of invading Germans - Northmen. (I'm talking about the Anglo-Saxons here, not anything more recent.)

The Sea of Rhun seems to fall somewhere in western Russia; that means anyone east of there is from Sauron's old domains in the east (usually just called Rhun). Khand would be Turkey and points south/eastward, and Harad would be Africa. (Pretty obvious, but for completeness.)

For the non-Mannish races... you'd expect Dwarvish heritage, if any, to crop up from Germany (the Misty Mountains) to the Baltic (the Iron Hills), with a possible outcrop in Ireland (the Blue Mountains). But you wouldn't see much of it - they keep to themselves, and there's no hints at any interbreeding.

Elvish heritage, at least more recent than Aragorn, would likely come from Mirkwood. That means Germany again. There's a brief period when you might get elvish mingling in Ireland (Mithlond), but it's not very likely.

Orcs? We know it's possible; Saruman seems to have bred them. You'd be tempted to look down in Mordor, but it seems probably the liberated slaves would have got quite the taboo in place about that. More likely, maybe, is Germany again, reaching up into Scandinavia and the Grey Mountains.

And Hobbits? Well, we know where they live - "the North-West of the Old World, east of the Sea". That's Britain.

What does this mean for me, personally? It means I'm probably of mixed Northman/Breefolk descent; there's no real indications of Roman-Gondorian in my family tree. There could be a Hobbitish strain somewhere - I have fuzzy feet, and at least I'm not tall - but nothing more exotic. My most notable ancestor would probably be Vidugavia, King of Rhovanion (T.A. 1250); his line led to the kings of Rohan, and a royal line that long is liable to worm its way into every family tree eventually.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

On an unrelated note, the Downs' activity is doing me a lot of good. Form's CbC posts inspired an out-of-order LOTR reread, now this thread inspired a COH reread. I haven't read any First Age stuff for years, it's high time! And Form, if you're reading this, thanks for taking us through in CbC style. It inspired some great discussion and rereads. I would rep you, but apparently I repped everyone who is currently active on the Downs too recently.

I agree! I've been pulling books down left right and centre, it's been great.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

On another unrelated note, as I read the first pages of COH I realized that the Houses of Men married highborn people from other Houses. How much of it do you think is marriage for love, and how much is an obligation to marry into a certain status? Does politics have a role in the making of the marriages?

It wouldn't surprise me in the least. We know the elves didn't do political marriages, but even among the Men closest to them, that doesn't necessarily hold true.

On the flip side, it's noted that Hurin and Huor were raised in Brethil, so apparently there's a whole fostering system going on behind the scenes. It's quite likely that marriage to members of the house which fostered you is encouraged, even if not required. (Morwen and Rian seem likely to have ended up fostered by Galdor; they would actually have met their future husbands when the evacuation of Dorthonion passed through Brethil, then re-met them when they returned from Gondolin. I imagine a certain level of 'haven't we done this before?', as the foster-daughters of the House head out to greet the ones returning unlooked-for from war...)

But on the flip-flip-side... there are six Lords among the Three Houses for whom we can positively state the heritage of their wives; Malach married one of his own people, and Barahir (who was never meant to rule) did too (though Emeldir was a granddaughter of the House of Hador). The other four - Galdor, Hurin, Haldir, and Handir - all married someone from another House. That's pretty long odds if it wasn't at least partly arranged.

On the flip-flip-flip-side, how easy is it for the child of an absolute ruler to find a spouse among their subjects? There's going to be a lot of unhealthy power dynamics at play if they try.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Speaking of marriages, I think that had certain events not happened, we would have had five Elf/Man marriages, rather than the four we currently have.

Aegnor and Andreth? (I see you're still not counting Dior and Nimloth... ^_^)

hS