Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I wonder how much strength do mortals have compared to Eldar? It takes a considerable amount of strength to be able to lift someone else high enough to chuck them over a cliff. (Or to steal their own weapon to stab them with for that matter.)

I think the key piece of evidence here is the duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth, where we are told:

Originally Posted by Silm

But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gashed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.

Fingolfin is able to fight on after being crushed under the full strength of Morgoth, and at least momentarily survives his neck being crushed by his weight. But how strong is Morgoth? Well, let's look back at a much earlier event:

Originally Posted by Silm

Then the Unlight of Ungoliant rose up even to the roots of the Trees, and Melkor sprang upon the mound; and with his black spear he smote each Tree to its core, wounded them deep, and their sap poured forth as it were their blood, and was spilled upon the ground.

How much force do you need to stab a tree to its heart? To ballpark this, I'm going to assume that the Two Trees were the size of the largest giant redwood, so ~30ft in diameter. That means Morgoth's spear has to punch 15 feet.

Let's say the Trees were of similar consistency to a shield. I'm saying this because it means I can use the fact that arrows seem to average just penetrating a shield, meaning I can say that a human-fired arrow would stick maybe an inch into a tree. (That sounds about right.)

Using this list, we find that a modern arrow imparts ~60 foot-pounds of at impact - it could push 60 lb through one foot. The arrow will penetrate an inch into the tree, meaning we'd need to be able to push 720 lb through that foot to actually penetrate a foot.

And Morgoth pushed his spear 15 times that far. That's right on 10,000 pounds.

Morgoth's minimum known attack strength is like having [url="https://cars.lovetoknow.com/List_of_Car_Weights"]3 medium-sized cars[url] piled on top of you, with their full weight resting on you (so 12 cars, if you're just under one wheel). It's a large elephant stepping directly on you with all four feet. It's the force of a car at 10mph not just hitting you and sending you flying, but crushing you directly against a wall. And Fingolfin survived it.

Arguably, he also lifted it, when he 'thrice arose again'. A super-strong human can apparently lift ~500 lb - Fingolfin operated at 20x that level. Even if we trim that down by arguing that he didn't necessarily push Morgoth straight back up, and that he was operating under extreme adrenaline conditions, we still have to assume something like 5x maximum human strength.

Beren only took down Curufin by knocking his horse over on top of him. Turin grabbed a sword from someone who wanted desperately not to hurt him. Dior probably had elven strength. Tuor is the only known mortal who went up against an elf in a fair fight and won.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Tuor is the only known mortal who went up against an elf in a fair fight and won.

hS

And then threw said elf over the wall.



Tuor the Child-Killer

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

And then threw said elf over the wall.

Tuor the Child-Killer

I think you're pushing that a bit far. Maeglin saw himself as a child, but that's no excuse for high treason, abduction, and the attempted murder of a seven-year-old in front of his mother. It's possible to understand his mindset without buying into it.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think you're pushing that a bit far. Maeglin saw himself as a child, but that's no excuse for high treason, abduction, and the attempted murder of a seven-year-old in front of his mother. It's possible to understand his mindset without buying into it.

hS

True. Maeglin attempted to kill a child too.



However, I too see him as one. By Eldar reckoning, being 190 years old is pretty much an equivalent of a child.



Maybe I am being overly passionate about the whole thing, though....



I think I should change the topic before it gets out of hand.

[Urwen]

What should the new topic be?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Urwen

True. Maeglin attempted to kill a child too.



However, I too see him as one. By Eldar reckoning, being 190 years old is pretty much an equivalent of a child.



Maybe I am being overly passionate about the whole thing, though....



I think I should change the topic before it gets out of hand.

There’s no evidence, to my recollection, that elves matured more slowly than men; they simply lived in their physical prime much longer.

190 year old elf might be young, but he has the accumulated knowledge and presumed wisdom of any 190 year old man.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

There’s no evidence, to my recollection, that elves matured more slowly than men; they simply lived in their physical prime much longer.

190 year old elf might be young, but he has the accumulated knowledge and presumed wisdom of any 190 year old man.

Originally Posted by Laws and Customs of the Eldar

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.

This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.

If you want to lean into the 'child' thing, you could have Maeglin be a late-bloomer, still 20 years shy of full growth when he reached Gondolin. But that's not evidenced in the text, and Silm: Of Maeglin actually implies the opposite.

hS

[Urwen]

All right, change of topic.


Who are your favorite character(s) of Tolkien Legendarium?


Mine should be obvious, and so should the reasons I like each one of them.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

There’s no evidence, to my recollection, that elves matured more slowly than men; they simply lived in their physical prime much longer.

There is some evidence of slower bodily maturation (and so on), as already noted in the thread, but Laws and Customs does not appear to be Tolkien's last word on the subject. From Tolkien's notes to NKE:

"(…) nette meant "girl approaching the adult" (in her "teens": the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé "maiden" applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage)."

JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70.

I note also ("they" are the Númenóreans):

"Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved "full growth" then they aged, or "wore out", very much more slowly."

JRRT Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales.

Not every relevant citation, but the VT date is the latest I can did up so far.

[Urwen]

I just had a stray thought: what if Gurthang/Anguirely were truly evil? I mean, their maker and all three of their subsequent owners met tragic ends....

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Twice we're told he no longer knows quiet, and that he used to 'wander amid the mines'; coupled with the Silm statement that "His words were few save in matters that touched him near", I take that as confirmation that he didn't want to be among people. What Morgoth did to him was actually crueller than physical torture: he took away his ability to enjoy the silence. Maeglin literally had to drown out what he'd once found restful, because the Dark Lord had poisoned it against him.

In one way, this is fitting punishment: this is after he'd basically stalked Idril, after he'd betrayed his city for promise of power. But in another, it's unbearably pitiable.

hS

It's very Clockwork Orangy, don't you think?

I agree it's a fitting punishment, as he cannot find satisfaction or make peace with what he's done, and it is very pitiable. Especially since he's pretty much done it to himself, misguidedly.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Tuor the Child-Killer

A child in his own mind, and maybe a gloomy teen by behaviour, but certainly fully geown physically. And given his independence and bits of leadership, I expect he's not quite a child as that. Only in his own mind.