Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against?

It's possible, but I've never got the impression the Valar could foresee the actions of specific people. Ulmo seems to have been responding more to the Doom of Mandos, and the fact that everything the Noldor built was prophesied to fall.

"Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea."

Re: Your question: Honestly, I think that only Turin and Tuor should count as having accomplished such a feat.

Well, Beren is specifically said to have been in the middle of killing Curufin when Luthien told him to stop... and why exclude Dior?

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It's possible, but I've never got the impression the Valar could foresee the actions of specific people. Ulmo seems to have been responding more to the Doom of Mandos, and the fact that everything the Noldor built was prophesied to fall.

"Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea."



Well, Beren is specifically said to have been in the middle of killing Curufin when Luthien told him to stop... and why exclude Dior?

hS

It's just an opinion I have on things. You're welcome to have a different one, of course.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

It's just an opinion I have on things. You're welcome to have a different one, of course.

I should certainly hope so! I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on the question of whether Dior was mortal.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I should certainly hope so! I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on the question of whether Dior was mortal.

hS

Dior is not one of the topics which interests me, so I never dug deeper on that.

[Urwen]

Do you think that Morgoth intended for Maeglin to die?


He made sure Maeglin was safe from his own forces, but he gave him no safety from the people of Gondolin. Meaning he might have anticipated that Maeglin would die either way, at the hands of his own allies no less.


Of course, the question is: what did he hope to accomplish by having his own loyalist killed?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Do you think that Morgoth intended for Maeglin to die?

He made sure Maeglin was safe from his own forces, but he gave him no safety from the people of Gondolin. Meaning he might have anticipated that Maeglin would die either way, at the hands of his own allies no less.

Of course, the question is: what did he hope to accomplish by having his own loyalist killed?

On the basis of no evidence at all, I'm going to say yes, he fully intended for Maeglin to die. I tend to view Morgoth as the ultimate nihilist - he'll promise anything he cares to, but feels no obligation to keep those promises. Sauron does this too, promising Gorlim his life back to betray Barahir and then offing him anyway.

Did he keep Maeglin safe from his forces? Maeglin was safe, but he never left the city, and I don't remember him running into any Orcs or Balrogs in the FoG. It's entirely possible that if he'd encountered Gothmog, he would have been skewered even while declaring his loyalty to the Iron Crown.

Like I say, this isn't an evidenced position, and I'm more than willing to shift it if you know of source text I've not considered.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

On the basis of no evidence at all, I'm going to say yes, he fully intended for Maeglin to die. I tend to view Morgoth as the ultimate nihilist - he'll promise anything he cares to, but feels no obligation to keep those promises. Sauron does this too, promising Gorlim his life back to betray Barahir and then offing him anyway.

Did he keep Maeglin safe from his forces? Maeglin was safe, but he never left the city, and I don't remember him running into any Orcs or Balrogs in the FoG. It's entirely possible that if he'd encountered Gothmog, he would have been skewered even while declaring his loyalty to the Iron Crown.

Like I say, this isn't an evidenced position, and I'm more than willing to shift it if you know of source text I've not considered.

hS

There isn't evidence per se. Presumably, he gave Maeglin a token he was to show should he encounter any of Morgoth's troops, and they'd leave him alone in turn. But this is just a fan theory I stumbled across. People on another forum say that Maeglin was an agent of Morgoth, who harbored fear and hatred for all Eldar, Maeglin included.


If we suppose this to be the case, then the question 'what did he hope to accomplish with that'?


Also, you never answered my earlier question: Could Morgoth have counter-summoned Maeglin's spirit to do his bidding?


Re: Dior: I thought about this, and I think he was immortal, which means there were three mortals who succeeded in slaying an Elda. (And no, Beren doesn't count, since he didn't actually succeed.)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

There isn't evidence per se. Presumably, he gave Maeglin a token he was to show should he encounter any of Morgoth's troops, and they'd leave him alone in turn. But this is just a fan theory I stumbled across. People on another forum say that Maeglin was an agent of Morgoth, who harbored fear and hatred for all Eldar, Maeglin included.

If we suppose this to be the case, then the question 'what did he hope to accomplish with that'?

You ask what Morgoth wanted to accomplish. In a word: discord. Before he was Fire and Ice and Darkness, Melkor was the Power of the sour note, the discordant strain, the chord at odds with the melody. If Sauron or Saruman had a defector in their pocket, they'd want to get as much out of them as they can - Morgoth is happy just to use them once to make a mess of things. Think of how he treats the Easterlings - they stab House Feanor in the back for him, but he cheerfully lets their leaders get slaughtered, then pins what's left of them up in Hithlum. Morgoth has no concept of loyalty to others; Maeglin was just another tool. Worth sending back in case he could get the defenses down, but not something worth keeping around once Gondolin was gone.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Also, you never answered my earlier question: Could Morgoth have counter-summoned Maeglin's spirit to do his bidding?

Good question! I have no idea. The idea of Morgoth being able to ensnare Elven spirits is common enough that it must have some source, but I don't know what it is.

So... what use would the Dark Lord get out of the shade of an elf that nobody left alive trusted? You'd have to look into whether possession is a thing in Middle-earth; again, it's a common idea, but what the source is, I couldn't say.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Re: Dior: I thought about this, and I think he was immortal, which means there were three mortals who succeeded in slaying an Elda. (And no, Beren doesn't count, since he didn't actually succeed.)

(Did you mean '... he was mortal'?) It depends what we're really looking for. Like Turin, Tuor, and presumably Dior, Beren overcame an elf in single combat and had the ability to kill him - but he didn't actually do so.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

So... what use would the Dark Lord get out of the shade of an elf that nobody left alive trusted?
hS

Maybe he merely wanted to torture him, as you said earlier.