Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Do it! I'm not sure what the best evidence regarding blunt-force trauma is... Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, maybe?



Well, I'm always happy to talk... the only problem is sorting my wild theorising from the facts!



Hmm... punishment? You're right that the Silm doesn't go i to the details of the Halls much, but BoLT tells us a lot more:

"There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again... go forth to laugh and sing again."

There's no word here of punishment, except in the length of their stay; it's widely asserted that Feanor is never getting out, but the Silm tells us that Finrod left very quickly. That's Mandos' judgement: how long you have to stay there.

The Prophecy of Mandos confirms that this is actually a punishment, in the Silm: "There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you." But the implication seems to be that the only direct punitive action is locking you up with your memories of what you did - unfiltered, one assumes, by the delusions of righteousness we create in life.

Interestingly, there is punishment of the dead in BoLT - but only of Men. Fui, who's kind of a dark fusion of Vaire and Nienna, judges them in her hall that's even grimmer than Mandos. Some she sends on to Mandos (for reasons unspecified), some get to go live in Valmar, most she sends down to camp on the plains of Arvalin until the End of Days - but some she straight up kicks back over the mountains to be captured by Melkor.

Fortunately, this whole idea was entirely rejected by the time of the Silm; but Mandos as a place of waiting and reflection seems to have remained.

One idea I haven't been able to source tonight is that some Elven shades might never reach Mandos, but be captured by Morgoth. I know I've seen it bandied about; if it holds true in the later canon, then the only named defector to Morgoth would probably be a good candidate - and we can assume that the Dark Lord wouldn't be inclined to treat his new toy gently...

hS

A certain fanfiction writer posited that dead souls can be counter-summoned by Morgoth to do his bidding. What if he did that with Maeglin?


Oh, and also, I think that if there were psychiatrists in middle Earth, several individuals could have benefit from them (Turin, Nienor, Maeglin etc)


Most notably Turin, for obvious reasons.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

A certain fanfiction writer posited that dead souls can be counter-summoned by Morgoth to do his bidding. What if he did that with Maeglin?

What kind of bidding are we talking about? What can a soul actually do?

But generally I don't think Maeglin would be very happy about it. He might demand some favours in repayment for his betrayal though.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Oh, and also, I think that if there were psychiatrists in middle Earth, several individuals could have benefit from them (Turin, Nienor, Maeglin etc)

Put Morwen on some antidepressants, for god's sake!

[Urwen]

I dunno, but I suppose that's who Huin was talking about in his latest post. There are plenty of individuals who defected to Morgoth - Ulfang, Uldor and their Easterlings, for example - but he talked about Elves beforehand. And there is only one known elf that defected to Morgoth.


(P.S. You two should really try a hand at my latest password.)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Who are you referring to here?

Sorry, yes, I meant 'only elf', ie, Maeglin.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Put Morwen on some antidepressants, for god's sake!

Ai, Morwen... her death is so depressing. "Hey, husband - our kids are dead, so I may as well give up. How's you?"

I hope Nienna had a nice sympathetic chat with that entire house before Mandos sent them on their way.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Sorry, yes, I meant 'only elf', ie, Maeglin.

That is....a rather disturbing spin on the whole thing. Also, I suppose that this is also your answer to this question

Originally Posted by Urwen

A certain fanfiction writer posited that dead souls can be counter-summoned by Morgoth to do his bidding. What if he did that with Maeglin?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ai, Morwen... her death is so depressing. "Hey, husband - our kids are dead, so I may as well give up. How's you?"

I was thinking more about "My younger child died of illness so I'm just gonna neglect the older one".

Originally Posted by HS

I hope Nienna had a nice sympathetic chat with that entire house before Mandos sent them on their way.

Grief counselling is a thing... Seriously though, that family just has an abnormal share of terrible things happen to them. I would like to see Nienna and Mandos make some extra effort with them.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I was thinking more about "My younger child died of illness so I'm just gonna neglect the older one".



Grief counselling is a thing... Seriously though, that family just has an abnormal share of terrible things happen to them. I would like to see Nienna and Mandos make some extra effort with them.

But none of la familia ended up in Mandos, so I doubt that they're under jurisdiction of those two.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

But none of la familia ended up in Mandos, so I doubt that they're under jurisdiction of those two.

A little kindness wouldn't hurt.

The Valar kind of gave Men the short end of the stick. Elves got the attention, and the guidance, and a cozy corner in the house; it was their choice to do what they did. Men never had so much love or such a choice. Their fate is not bound to this world so what, the Valar have no responsibility for them? They get stuck with Morgoth and just have to deal with it. House of Hador gets the sucks even more than the rest. And Hurin even argues theology with Morgoth, he stands by what he has learned about the Valar from the Elves. Is it not at least slightly decent to give that family some recognition? We're not talking about judgement or jurisdiction, just a kind word (or maybe even a "thank you", if not an "I'm sorry"?).

Not to mention that Turin may have the power to one day vanquish Morgoth and you want him to not hate you ^.^

[Urwen]

Funny how this thread went from discussing Maeglin to discussing la familia.


(Not that I mind, as both topics have my interest, but it's still funny)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

A little kindness wouldn't hurt.

The Valar kind of gave Men the short end of the stick. Elves got the attention, and the guidance, and a cozy corner in the house; it was their choice to do what they did. Men never had so much love or such a choice. Their fate is not bound to this world so what, the Valar have no responsibility for them? They get stuck with Morgoth and just have to deal with it. House of Hador gets the sucks even more than the rest. And Hurin even argues theology with Morgoth, he stands by what he has learned about the Valar from the Elves. Is it not at least slightly decent to give that family some recognition? We're not talking about judgement or jurisdiction, just a kind word (or maybe even a "thank you", if not an "I'm sorry"?).

Not to mention that Turin may have the power to one day vanquish Morgoth and you want him to not hate you ^.^

I think there is reason to hope for exactly this. Obviously the idea of Men going to Nienna's halls for judgement is out, but consider this:

-Tolkien Gateway gives, unsourced, the statement that the name 'Halls of Awaiting' refers to the fact that Men and Elves await their different fates in Mandos.

-The Valaquenta tells us that 'all those who wait in Mandos cry to' Nienna, 'for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom'.

We know how much Tolkien liked to keep and adapt old ideas rather than just throwing them out; it's perfectly reasonable to think that, where once Fui was the cruel judge of mortals, now Nienna is their kind listening ear and shoulder to cry on, to help them get their heads in order before they head on Out.

Shades of Death of the Endless here, I know, but in a setting where even Feanor just gets put in permanent time-out, I think we have to assume Turin and Nienor at least get a hug.

hS