What is the Chance of the Valar Fighting for the Free People During the Third age?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

And when did Gondor ever surrender? Or Arnor for that matter?

I think you've made a lot of good points in your post, and your interpretation of Sauron's motivations is, on reflection, a lot better grounded than mine. I just wanted to highlight this question, and ask: did anyone on the side of Good ever surrender, in the history of Middle-earth?

Because I don't think they did. Retreat, yes - from the Sons of Feanor after their father died, to Faramir from Ithilien. Suffer defeats, absolutely - the whole First Age is a litany of defeats. But surrender? Willingly accept the authority of one from the Dark? No.

Except... of course they did. The Numenoreans became slave-taking conquerors who worshipped Morgoth. The Hillmen of Rhudaur, whose people had lived in Dunedain realms for a thousand years, invited the Witch-King in. Except^2... they didn't so much surrender as convert. Neither Numenor nor Rhudaur were conquered before their defections; they were seduced, not beaten.

So no: from nations down to individuals, no-one on the side of Good ever surrenders in defeat (possible exception: the House of Hador, but I think they were basically enslaved). It's not something Tolkien would have written.

(And of course, he did write a full-blown Long Defeat scenario, with Good being progressively overwhelmed by a far stronger foe. That's basically a description of the Silmarillion, from the Sudden Flame onwards.)

hS