Lord of the Rings TV series gets multi-season order at Amazon

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Aha! There are no fewer than FIVE maps! One of them is just geographic features with no names at all, and two (identical) just the names of the geographic features with no political nomenclature, but there are 2 more representing 2 different epochs:

Map 1 reflects the situation before the First War of the Rings: Ost-in-Edhil and Eregion are present, along with Khazad-dum. Numenor is there of course with its three principal cities, and a region in Harad (but not a city) is marked as Umbar

Map 2 however is either the earlier Third Age, or the very late Second after the Downfall: now we have all the key sites of the Kingdoms in Exile under their earlier names: Minas Anor, Minas Ithil, Osgiliath, Orthanc, Fornost, Annuminas, Amon Sul. Umbar is now a city. Numenor of course is gone.
Interestingly, so also is "Khazad-Dum"- it's now "Moria," which can't work. Khazad-dum only fell to the Balrog and was abandoned to become "Moria" in TA 1981- but the last vestige of Arnor had been destroyed in 1974. Possibly the cartographer takes the position that Elves called the place Moria beginning with the destruction of Hollin.

[Galadriel55]

I don't know if I want to see a Last Alliance story. That is actually an important piece in ME history character- and theme-wise, and I feel attached enough to it to be very sorry to see it done all wrong.

However, if they go all Game of Thrones on the Numenorian rulers, I could totally buy that. If there was ever a GOT in Tolkien, it's in Numenor. Also, I have very little knowledge and attachment to that era, so a lot of things would be forgiven on my part. I would give a Numenor series a go.

[Huinesoron]

Interestingly!, while it doesn't say anything about the show as a whole, it's pretty clear that they got a total geek to make the maps. I've noticed that the pre- and post-Downfall maps were not only both hand-drawn, but completely hand-drawn; check out the label for 'Nenuial' for proof that they redid all the labels. That's not the easiest approach to take, and says that somebody cared about these maps they were making.

The other proof that they cared is in all the details the added to the Second Age map, a map which Tolkien never drew. It's not only the forests - the whole coastline has changed. All along the coast of Lindon and what will one day be Gondor, the coast extends a little further out, and there are hills and forests that would be washed away in the Downfall.

They also filled in the East Bight in Mirkwood, of course - but look to the south of it. That's what we call the Brown Lands, but back in the Second Age it was the home of the Entwives. I'm not sure I agree with depicting it as a tree-filled valley, as they seem to have done - but the fact that they put it in says a fair bit. As does the de-deltification of Anduin and the expansion of Tolfalas.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Possibly the cartographer takes the position that Elves called the place Moria beginning with the destruction of Hollin.

Well, Celebrimbor wrote 'Moria' on their doors... Also, given that the usual Sindarin name for the dwarves, 'naugrim', literally means 'stunted ones', it's not hard to imagine them using 'Moria' when not talking to dwarves. "Oh, yeah, the shorties from the Black Pit - um, sorry, I mean the Longbeards of the Mansion of the Dwarves..."

hS

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Well, Celebrimbor wrote 'Moria' on their doors... Also, given that the usual Sindarin name for the dwarves, 'naugrim', literally means 'stunted ones', it's not hard to imagine them using 'Moria' when not talking to dwarves. "Oh, yeah, the shorties from the Black Pit - um, sorry, I mean the Longbeards of the Mansion of the Dwarves..."

An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.

I was thinking that the use of "naugrim" seemed out of kilter too. Surely at least the Gwaith-i-Mírdain would have referred to them as the Casari, but I suppose in Sindarin allowances must be made.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.

Or reproducing the Book of Mazarbul as tengwar and angerthas transliterations of English.

I was thinking that the use of "naugrim" seemed out of kilter too. Surely at least the Gwaith-i-Mírdain would have referred to them as the Casari, but I suppose in Sindarin allowances must be made.

Hadhod(rim) was the polite word, a phonetic Sindarization of Khazad. cf. Hadhodrond, "vault of the Khazad." Casari/Cassarondo was Quenya, not used in everyday speech even by the Noldorin Gwaith.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Hadhod(rim) was the polite word, a phonetic Sindarization of Khazad. cf. Hadhodrond, "vault of the Khazad." Casari/Cassarondo was Quenya, not used in everyday speech even by the Noldorin Gwaith.

Yes I know (I was worried that I would have to qualify that I knew that Casari was Quenya) but it still seems odd to me that Elves would persist in, effectively, calling them "stunties" in an official capacity regarding place names and so forth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Yes I know (I was worried that I would have to qualify that I knew that Casari was Quenya) but it still seems odd to me that Elves would persist in, effectively, calling them "stunties" in an official capacity regarding place names and so forth.

Well, in terms of place names all I can think of are two from the First Age (Nogrod and Bar-en-Nibin-noeg), with neither of which the Elves were on especially good terms. I reckon the folk of Hollin were more polite (ergo Hadhodrim)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Returning to Balin's tomb: actually, it fails in a couple of respects (as T himself later acknowledged): first, the primary inscription, like the BoM, is in English, rendered in phonetic cirth (the Khuzdul is at the bottom). The second problem is that, while we know that the Dwarves don't use their secret Khuzdul names even on their tombs, Balin/Fundin aren't their actual "outer names," but translations of their Dalish names into Norse equivalents.

Of course, in reality we know that T didn't develop his fiction of translation until a decade later.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.

Tolkien says that the dwarves didn't even inscribe their true names on their tombs. It's at the end of section 1 in Appendix F of LOTR.

Interesting map, by the way. I didn't realise that Numenor was so far south. It makes sense now why Umbar was so important, and why the survivors sailed up the Anduin river if this map is accurate.

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

It's got potential, I remain curious how successfully or not they will pull it off.

The main obstacle in my eyes is that there is no source dialogue to draw from, which will affect the tone of the writing dramatically. No screenwriter could hope to match the gravitas of an Oxford linguistics professor writing in multiple invented languages in the 1930s. The reason that LOTR worked so well in film was that there were 1000+ pages to draw from, hardly any really dramatic lines had to be written.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

The main obstacle in my eyes is that there is no source dialogue to draw from, which will affect the tone of the writing dramatically. No screenwriter could hope to match the gravitas of an Oxford linguistics professor writing in multiple invented languages in the 1930s. The reason that LOTR worked so well in film was that there were 1000+ pages to draw from, hardly any really dramatic lines had to be written.

Which hearkens back to what I see as the main issue with the whole endeavour: if the writers aren't using Tolkien for inspiration, what will they draw from? I have to assume the worst in that GoT and other recent successful shows will be models. That idea does not impress me in the least.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Which hearkens back to what I see as the main issue with the whole endeavour: if the writers aren't using Tolkien for inspiration, what will they draw from? I have to assume the worst in that GoT and other recent successful shows will be models. That idea does not impress me in the least.

I'm keeping my expectations very low. I'm willing to give it a chance early on, just because I think it's a good thing to have some new blood in adapting the world. Jackson/Walsh/Boyens had sort of taken over the fandom with their own vision and I will give the series a chance just to see something different from the Jackson/Walsh/Boyens monopoly.

[Morthoron]

At the present rate, the characters will all be interacting remotely via Zoom.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

Tolkien says that the dwarves didn't even inscribe their true names on their tombs. It's at the end of section 1 in Appendix F of LOTR.

Ah, that was not my intended meaning when I wrote that (over a year ago, mind you!); I wasn't talking about his true name. "Balin" was his outer name in Northern Mannish; the sarcophagus should, I thought, have borne the Khuzdul translation of "Balin" (which, I believe, would still have been his outer name). I believe Professor Tolkien was aware of this but decided to leave it as-is, as noted in "Of Dwarves and Men".

But having looked into it, now I have my doubts. Am I being too clever for myself, and Professor Tolkien actually meant he should have rendered the Northern Mannish in its actual form rather than in Old Norse, and the Khuzdul form was the true name?

e.g. As I understand it "Balin" might mean something like "Burning" in Old Norse (i.e. Mannish) — was his true name the Khuzdul for "Burning", or was it something entirely different? I keep re-editing this post because I'm worried I'm not making my point...

Anyway it's not on topic for this thread.

The success or failure of the Amazon series will derive, I suspect, on how well they are able to market it (whether or not it's true to the source material in tone and language, which it almost certainly won't be).

[mindil]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

...Professor Tolkien actually meant he should have rendered the Northern Mannish in its actual form rather than in Old Norse, and the Khuzdul form was the true name?

That's what I always assumed.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

e.g. As I understand it "Balin" might mean something like "Burning" in Old Norse (i.e. Mannish) — was his true name the Khuzdul for "Burning", or was it something entirely different?.

I assumed the Khuzdul name was something else entirely. I figured the Mannish nicknames were just that, nicknames - like Shorty, Lefty, Bluebeard, and yet were put on tombs.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by mindil

I assumed the Khuzdul name was something else entirely. I figured the Mannish nicknames were just that, nicknames - like Shorty, Lefty, Bluebeard, and yet were put on tombs.

Exactly, me too.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mindil

I assumed the Khuzdul name was something else entirely. I figured the Mannish nicknames were just that, nicknames - like Shorty, Lefty, Bluebeard, and yet were put on tombs.

Hence, Bashful, Doc, Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Sneezy and Dopey.