4 Of the coming of the Elves

[ArcusCalion]

Thank you for letting us know! Let me just say right off the bat, that since working on this chapter with Fin, I have changed my mind about using the Quendi and the Eldar bits in this chapter, as I think they work much much better in that essay. Therefore, in my own version of this chapter, I have drastically reduced it by cutting out nearly all of those parts.

[Aiwendil]

Sorry again I've been taking so long with this. I was going to try to write an all-encompassing post, but perhaps it's better if I just post what I have for now.

As an exercise, I tried constructing a version of this chapter first without reference to the version posted here. However, to keep things simple I did not add anything from LT, MT, etc., and I only indicated the spot where the Cuivenyarna would go. So this is really just a basic text built from LQ and AAm. Note, I am not proposing this as the text for our chapter; it was only intended as a point of comparison.

CE-01 <AAm {§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and . . . but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
<AAm{§31} Now Oromë dearly loved all the works of Yavanna, . . . he would often come also to Middle-earth, and there go a-hunting under the stars.> CE-01.2 <AAm* He had great love of horses and of hounds, but all beasts were in his thought, and he hunted only the monsters and fell creatures of Melkor. If he descried them afar or his great hounds got wind of them, then his white horse, Nahar, shone like silver as it ran through the shadows, and the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves. And at the mort Oromë would blow his great horn, until the mountains shook,> <AAm and things of evil fled away; but Melkor . . . giving battle only to those of little strength, tormenting the weak,> CE-01.3 <AAm* and trusting ever to his slaves to do his evil work.> <AAm Yet ever his dominion spread southward over Middle-earth, for even as Oromë passed the servants of Melkor would gather again; and the Earth was full of shadows and deceit.>
CE-02 <LQ {§18a} It came to pass that the Valar held council, . . .
{§19} And Varda said naught,. . . but in the North in the Elder Days Men called them the Burning Briar: {quoth Pengolod}.>
CE-03 <AAm {§37} In that hour, it is said, . . .
{§38} In the changes of the world. . . and the sound of water falling over stone.>
At this point the Cuivenyarna would be inserted
<AAm{§39} Long the Quendi dwelt . . . no other living things that spoke or sang.
CE-04 {§40 At this time also, it is said, Melian, fairest of the Maiar, desiring to look upon the stars, went up upon Taniquetil; and suddenly she desired to see Middle-earth, and she left Valinor and walked in the twilight.}
{1085}
{§41} And when the Elves . . .
{§42} Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited. And when Oromë looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them CE-04.1 {Eldar,} the people of the stars.
{§43} Yet many of the Quendi . . .
{§44} Thus it was that when Nahar . . .
{§45} But of those hapless . . .
{1086}
{§46} Oromë tarried a while . . . abode with the Elves.>
CE-05 <LQ{ And the {gods}[Valar] rejoiced, and yet were amazed at what he told; but} Manwë sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, . . .
{§21} But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-05.1 fortress[es] of Melkor in the North and make an end. Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall.>
CE-06 <AAm {§48} Melkor met the onset of the Valar. . .
{1092-1100}
{§49} That siege was long and grievous, . . .
{1099}
{§50} It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-06.1{a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained}<AAm emendation his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithful to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, . . .
{Third section of the Annals of Aman
1100
The Chaining of Melkor}
{§51} Then the Valar returned to the Land of Aman, . . .
{§52} And the Valar doomed Melkor . . . discovered by the Valar.>
CE-07 <LQ {§23} Then again the {gods}[Valar] were gathered in council . . . speak with the tongue{s} of Melkor.
Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling . . .
{§24} The Eldar prepared now . . .
{§25} The smallest host . . .
{§26} Next came the Noldor, . . . northern lands of old. CE-07.1 <LQ emendation Dark is their hue and grey are their eyes.>
{§27} The greatest host came last, . . .
{§29} These are the chief peoples of the Eldalië, . . .
The {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] were . . .
{§30} Others there were also . . .
{[}Other names in song and tale . . .
The Noldor are the Wise, . . .
The Teleri are the Foam-riders, . . . the {Axe}[Staff]-elves, the Green Elves and the Brown, . . . the Lingerers; they are the Friends of Ossë, <LQ emendation the Axe-elves,> the Elves of the Twilight, the Silvern, the Enchanters, the Wards of Melian, the Kindred of Lúthien, the people of Elwë. {Quoth Pengoloð.]}

I'll try to start digging into the details of Findegil's version tomorrow, but some initial thoughts after putting together my version:

- It seems that I relied more heavily on AAm and Findegil on LQ for the basic text. My understanding is that AAm is the later text, so I preferred it in cases where there was nothing else to decide between them, and used LQ only when it gave a fuller account or details that were otherwise missing. I made the following table of correspondences between the section numbers in the two texts, which might be of some use (the .5s indicate part way through a section and the bolded entries indicate the ones I preferred for my draft):

LQ : AAm
18 : 30-31
18a : 32-33
19 : 34-36
20 .0 : 37-46
20.5 - 21.0 : 47
21.5 : 48 - 50
22 : 51-52
23 : 53-57
24-27 : 58
29 : 59-62
30 : 63-66

I think it's worth looking at each LQ/AAm section in Findegil's draft and thinking about whether it or the other source is better.

- I agree that we should include the "Cuivienyarna", but I'm not completely sure how. I don't like the solution of just plopping it down in the middle here without transition or preamble. It seems clear to me that Tolkien did not intend this to <i>necessarily</i> be the "true" story of the Elves' awakening, especially since he noted that the names Imin, Tata, and Enel likely came from the number-words rather than the other way around. I think we need to somehow indicate that this is a story told among the Elves.

- In MT VI, an altered story of the Battle of the Powers is sketched out. I thought about this a bit, but it seems to me that this must be considered a projected change that we cannot implement. I haven't read through Findegil's version enough yet to see if anything was taken from this text, but I'll be continuing to think about this as I read through.

- I haven't looked at LT additions yet, though I see that there are some in Findegil's text. I think that in general I'm more hesitant to add in LT material in small bits than is Findegil, but I have no objection in principle, so this is something else I'll be paying attention to as I read through Findegil's version.

- I tend to think that the etymological discussion in "Quendi and Eldar" should not be included in the narrative of this chapter, though again, I haven't looked at specifics yet.

Mostly I just wanted to post this to start myself going. I hope to carefully read the proposed draft and discussion tomorrow or, at least, within the next few days.

[ArcusCalion]

Greetings Aiwendil! We look forward to reading your comments!

[Aiwendil]

I got off to a good start but then got bogged down with some other things. I think I'll post the comments I have so far, which mainly address the easier early parts.

I think I prefer my selection of LQ vs. AAm (see my post above) as the basic text paragraph by paragraph. For much of the chapter, AAm is the fuller (and later, I believe) text, so taking LQ as the basis throughout means breaking it up with a lot of insertions from AAm. I think it’s better to take full sections from AAm. So, for instance, I would be inclined to start the chapter with AAm section 30, rather than start with LQ section 18, only to switch to AAm after a few sentences.

CE-SL-01: This addition is not needed if we take up the emendation (as indeed we must) from AAm* (given in the notes on AAm), where the change was apparently specifically made to remove Melkor’s creation of the Balrogs:

We must similarly take up the emendation from AAm* in the following section.

Thus, my text:

CE-01 <AAm {§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and . . . but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
<AAm{§31} Now Oromë dearly loved all the works of Yavanna, . . . he would often come also to Middle-earth, and there go a-hunting under the stars.> CE-01.2 <AAm* He had great love of horses and of hounds, but all beasts were in his thought, and he hunted only the monsters and fell creatures of Melkor. If he descried them afar or his great hounds got wind of them, then his white horse, Nahar, shone like silver as it ran through the shadows, and the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves. And at the mort Oromë would blow his great horn, until the mountains shook,> <AAm and things of evil fled away; but Melkor . . . giving battle only to those of little strength, tormenting the weak,> CE-01.3 <AAm* and trusting ever to his slaves to do his evil work.> <AAm Yet ever his dominion spread southward over Middle-earth, for even as Oromë passed the servants of Melkor would gather again; and the Earth was full of shadows and deceit.>

CE-EX-03: I’m not sure I agree that this needs to be added to explicitly motivate the council. It would make sense to add it if by changing from AAm to LQ here, we somehow missed out on a similar explanation from LQ, but that’s not the case; LQ has a section telling the same stuff, essentially, as in AAm sections 30-31, and then moves on to the council without comment (the motivation being implied, I think). A very minor point, and certainly not one I feel strongly about, but in general I prefer not to break up the texts without good reason.

CE-EX-04: There’s probably a lot to say about the Cuivienyarna, but first I should repeat that I agree in principle that it would be good to include it. I would not that I prefer a slightly different placement for it, where I think it is less disruptive to the text. My version has here:

{§19} And Varda said naught,. . . but in the North in the Elder Days Men called them the Burning Briar: {quoth Pengolod}.>
CE-03 <AAm {§37} In that hour, it is said, . . .
{§38} In the changes of the world. . . and the sound of water falling over stone.>
At this point the Cuivenyarna would be inserted
<AAm{§39} Long the Quendi dwelt . . . no other living things that spoke or sang.

In other words, I would place the Cuivienyarna after AAm sections 37 and 38, which allows those paragraphs to form a complete thought before diverting our attention to the legend. One might, I suppose, object to the slight atemporality of mentioning that the first sound the Elves heard was the sound of water before the Cuivienyarna tells that they awaken, but that atemporality is there anyway since the very first sentence of the Cuivienyarna returns to the time “when their first bodies were being made”.

I’d also note, and this is a small and very minor point, that I see no reason to import the first sentence from LQ section 20 to replace the beginning of AAm section 37; as in my version, I prefer to use sections 37-38 of AAm in their entirety.

Now we come to the hard question of the status of the Cuivienyarna. I think the evidence shows that Tolkien did not intend this to be (necessarily) the “real” story of the awakening of the Elves, in all its details. He noted on the typescript itself:

Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore.

Then there’s the footnote attached to the statement that the Elvish words for “one”, “two” and “three” came from the names of Imin, Tata, and Enil:

The Eldarin words referred to are Min, Atta (or Tata), Nel. The reverse is probably historical. The Three had no names until they had developed language, and were given (or took) names after they had devised numerals (or at least the first twelve).

Which shows that he considered at least some details of the legend to be likely “untrue”. And finally, the story is referred to both in its title and in “Quendi and Eldar” as a legend. That doesn’t mean it’s not “true”, of course, but it does mean that Tolkien is not telling us that it’s true.

All of which is to say that I have a nagging feeling that we must insert something to set the legend apart as just that, and I’m not sure that including the title is enough. I would suggest that we might use Tolkien’s own note from the typescript as an additional subtitle:

CE-EX-04 <Q&E
The legend of the Awaking of the Quendi
(Cuivienyarna)
<Q&E note to Cuivienyarna[A] surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore>
While their first bodies were being made ...

CE-SL-06, -07: I wonder if it’s not better simply to remove this bit rather than make this editorial addition:

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and later the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars[.]{, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrowdim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.} But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.>

CE-EX-06 - CE-EX-23: As a general comment, I think the MT material here and following feels very jarring and out of place. These texts are very much Tolkien, in his own voice, commenting on his story and world, and inserting large parts of this into the story itself feels like a bit of an abuse of those texts to me. It would be different if the MT texts in question provided critical components of the narrative, but mostly they just explain and contemplate the narrative.

If the decision is to keep this material, I think ArcusCalion’s suggestion of making it a separate section with its own sub-heading is a good one, but I think it will need a lot more work. My vote would be not to include it here. Perhaps if a coherent and self-sufficient text can be made of it, it could be separated and put elsewhere, for instance as an appendix?

[Findegil]

I can see your reasoning for the different choice of the basic text. I did rather choose by fiting structure than by anthing else. So I am over all not in opposition against AAm as basic text. But as a matter of fact I think that some of passages that I kept from LQ add worth while information. So let have the discussion pice by pice.

I do not mind if we start with LQ §18 or AAm §30 and if you prefer AAm that is okay for me, but the more detailed description of growth that had been checked seems worth the interruption of the text for me. What about this:

CE-01<AAm{§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and all Middle-earth lay in a twilight under the stars.> <LQ While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; …

As well I find it sad to loos Yavanna’s feeling of ‘ill content that it[Middle-earth] was forsaken’. With this and the removal of CE-EX-03 we would nearly annihilate an explicit thread of the storyline in LQ with Yavanna as the one actively pushing the other Valar to act in Middle-earth. The only part left is her speech at the council. But if you feel it necessary that is bearable.

CE-SL-01: Do I understand rightly, that you suppose to leave that detailed description of the Balrogs including their nature and physical exterior out yust because it would mean an insertion into a text composition? To this I am strongly in opposition and the ‘corollary’ to our rules is with me on this issue I think. Anyhow ‘multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him’ can in my opinion not stand alone. How could he multiply spirits? Did What about this editing:

… CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he CE-SL-01b {multiplied}<LQ gahthered> the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. <LQ; Ch. 3; Note to §18 These were the {(}ealar{)}[Footnote to the text: 'spirit' (not incarnate, which was fëa, {S[indarin]}Sindarin fae). eala 'being'.] spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame.> But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>

CE-EX-04: You are right, however clver we may place the Cuivienyarna there will be some forward and backward jumping in time. For me your placement does worl equally well, so if the other don’t mind we can change the place.
A agree that when using AAm §37 - §38 it doesn’t make sense to use the first sentence of LQ §20. It made it to my text because LQ was my basic and I didn’t liked another change before the palce where I gave the Cuivienyarna.

’Legendary’ character of the Cuivienyarna: Wow, I would not have expected such a ‘inovative’ use of a author’s note to be considered acceptable. But I am okay with this.

CE-SL-06: Interisting that I would like to remove the ‘sun of summer’ which you ememnd by putting in ‘later’ and I would hold the twilight times by editorial emendation. Are you sure that the concept has been abondaned that the sun was a sign for the waning of the first born and for the approach of the Dominion of Men? That was my reason to remove the ‘sun of summer’. But however that might be Elvish joy might always be mingled with some sadness, wo we might keep the ‘sun of summer’ as you proposed.
CE-SL-07: I agree that my amendations are a bit on the heavy side, what about only skiping the later part and adding in the same style as before only a ‘later’:

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and CE-SL-06b<editorial addition later> the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and CE-SL-07b<editorial addition later> the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrowdim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy.{ For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.} But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.>

CE-EX-05.3: Oops, we have not marked this, but it must be removed since we don’t know for sure how the relations was:

{ 1085
§41 }And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar CE-EX-05.3{ (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)} it chanced that Oromë rode to {Endon}[Endor] in his hunting, …

CE-EX-06 to CE-EX-23: (CE-EX-24 is actually the Sub-chapter heading, which we should discusse independently.) I agree that this enlargement might have become to big an exagreation for the text of our propose at this palce. I agree to remove it. But I think it should become the grain for building up a part of volume III.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I can see your reasoning for the different choice of the basic text. I did rather choose by fiting structure than by anthing else. So I am over all not in opposition against AAm as basic text. But as a matter of fact I think that some of passages that I kept from LQ add worth while information. So let have the discussion pice by pice.

Agreed.

As well I find it sad to loos Yavanna’s feeling of ‘ill content that it[Middle-earth] was forsaken’. With this and the removal of CE-EX-03 we would nearly annihilate an explicit thread of the storyline in LQ with Yavanna as the one actively pushing the other Valar to act in Middle-earth. The only part left is her speech at the council. But if you feel it necessary that is bearable.

You have a good point here, and it's probably worth some heavier editing to keep that thread. However, in your first draft I find a redundancy between LQ and AAm, as we twice tell that Orome and Yavanna went to Middle-earth, and twice tell of Yavanna's grief. In LQ we are told that she "grieved at the darkness of Middle-earth and ill content that it was forsaken" and in AAm she is "grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked". I think we either must lose one of those two statements, or somehow combine them.

How about:

CE-01<AAm{§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and all Middle-earth lay in a twilight under the stars.> <LQ While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; and Yavanna often would walk there in the shadows, grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked <LQand ill content that it was forsaken>. And she set a sleep . . .

If we're including these bits from LQ, I suppose it might be better to take the first sentence from LQ as well, rather than AAm, so we could also do:

CE-01<LQ{§18 }In all this time, since Melkor overthrew the Lamps, the Middle-earth east of the Mountains was without light. While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; and Yavanna often would walk there in the shadows, grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked <LQand ill content that it was forsaken>. And she set a sleep . . .

Either of those is fine with me.

CE-SL-01: No, I'm not opposed to interrupting the text for the sake of adding details (which we frequently do), but I thought that the motivation for this was to avoid saying, as in LQ, that Melkor created the Balrogs - since Tolkien had already emended AAm* for this same purpose, and since my general preference is for AAm as the later text, I thought we might use that. You're right that the LQ note offers some additional descriptive details, and I think your last suggestion here is good.

The word "multiplied", used in AAm*, is interesting, and I'm not sure what to make of it - it seems to me that the purpose of this emendation was to remove the statement that Melkor created the Balrogs, and yet it is still said that he "multiplied" them. In any case, given the (presumably later) "no more than 3 or at most 7" note, I agree that "multiplied" must go, and I think your suggestion to replace it with LQ's "gathered" is good.

CE-EX-04: OK, I think we're in agreement here.

’Legendary’ character of the Cuivienyarna: Wow, I would not have expected such a ‘inovative’ use of a author’s note to be considered acceptable. But I am okay with this.

Yeah, it was not without some hesitation that I suggested that. But since the purpose of the author's note in this case is to tell us what, exactly, the Cuivienyarna is, and since that's also the purpose of a sub-title, I find it acceptable.

CE-SL-06, -07: I suppose this works. If you do find the "sun of summer" questionable, I'm OK with deleting it, but it seems quite plausible to me that the Elves would delight in the sun; certainly I don't think it's suggested anywhere that they had any antipathy toward it, even if it was associated with the rise of Men.

CE-EX-05.3: Good catch.

CE-EX-06 - -23: OK, good, agreed that this is better suited to volume III.

[gandalf85]

CE-01: If both of Aiwendil's suggestions are valid, I suppose we must choose for stylistic reasons. I prefer the first suggestion, starting with AAm.

CE-SL-01: I agree to Fin's latest change, and changing "multiplied" to "gathered".

CE-EX-04: I agree to Aiwendil's placement of the Cuivienyarna. I think including the information that this is a child's tale is a great idea, including it in the sub-heading works well.

CE-SL-06, 07: I agree with Fin's changes. I say we keep the sun of summer; the Elves are very much a mix of joy and sorrow, so the idea that they delight in the sun while simultaneously recognizing that it signals their downfall works very well.

CE-EX-06 - -23: Definitely agree with moving this to Volume III.

I have a few other recommendations/changes:

1. There are a few "k->c" changes which need to be made in this chapter, including "Valakirka->Valacirca", "Kuivienen->Cuivienen", "Helkar->Helcar", "Kalaquendi->Calaquendi" and "Orokarni->Orocarni". Also, the change "Ork->Orc" should be made throughout the whole document.

2.In §41:

And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)

Is this conversion right? What are we using as the length of a Valian year?

3. A few typos:

But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with greatpower - and to entxeat him

"greatpower" should be two words and "entxeat" should be "entreat"

them to get the Quendi out of {his}Melkors sphere of influence

"Melkors" should be "Melkor's"

and on a powerlevel with the Valar

"powerlevel" should be two words.

4.

Then arose a clamour among the {Gods}[Valar] and the most spake for {Palúrien}[Kementári] and Vána, whereas CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar{ – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ In this Measse backed him, and}. Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else...

This is not in keeping with the later conception of Nienna, a goddess of compassion and empathy. I say we change it to: "Mandos {and Fui were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else..."

5.

But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.>

The idea of the Valar using "guile" doesn't feel in keeping with their later conception, I would simply change it to "overcome him by force {or guile}".

6. I would move the entire "The Clan-names, with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar" section to Volume 3, to a chapter with other linguistic material.

[Findegil]

CE-01: I agree with gandalf85 to take Aiwendil’s first proposle. But more important we agree to include CE-EX-03 as well, or not?

CE-SL-06: I am okay with ‘sun of summer’ with the addition of ‘later’ especially since the heraldic signs of Fingoflin and his son was a winged sun. I assume that they toke them after they entered Middle-earth at the first rising of the sun and in a backward application based on Fingoflin’s claim as High King of the Noldor applied the similar heraldic signs to his father Finwë and grand-(who know how often)-sire Tata. We placed that heraldic sign of the House of Tata (NN ‘Patterns’ (the winged sun in the upper right corner, sign of the second House; Artist; no. 183; p. 186) into this chapter.

CE-EX-06: So this means we would let the text stand as following:

<AAm …
{§41 }And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar CE-EX-05.3{ (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)} it chanced that Oromë rode to {Endon}[Endor] in his hunting, ... he heard afar off many voices singing. CE-EX-05.5{
§42 }Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited.{ And when Oromë looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them Eldar, the people of the stars.}
{§43 }Yet many of the Quendi were adread at his coming. ... if ever haply they met.
{§44 }Thus it was that when Nahar neighed ... and all the noblest of the Quendi were drawn towards it.> CE-EX-05.2 <Q&E {when}When Oromë appeared among them, and at length some dared to approach him, they asked him his name, and he answered: Oromë. Then they asked him what that signified, and again he answered: Oromë. To me only is it given; for I am Oromë. Yet the titles that he bore were many and glorious; but he withheld them at that time, that the Quendi should not be afraid.
{Nahar, the name of Oromë’s horse. ‘}Otherwise it was{,’ says Pengolodh, ‘} with the steed upon which the Lord Oromë rode. When the Quendi asked his name, and if it bore any meaning, Oromë answered: ‘Nahar, and he is called from the sound of his voice, when he is eager to run.’>
<AAm{§45 }But of those hapless who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living hath descended into the pits of Utumno, or hath explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa: that all those of the Quendi that came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty and wickedness were corrupted and enslaved. CE-EX-06 Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orkor had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance thereof, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orkor loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This maybe was the vilest deed of Melkor and the most hateful to Eru.>

I left the marker CE-EX-06 to make the reference of our discussion clear, but as we decisede know it is no change to the text.
I suppose that the subheading CE-EX-24 can be removed in this case as well, or moved to a later place according to that in AAm.

Gandalf85’s additional points:
1. k -> c: Agreed, I will add these cases to the list of general changes if they are not included already and search the entire text if they are done or not. But fully correct is ‘Cuiviénen’ what so ever it does replace.
While doing this I found that we use only once the word ‘Orocarni’ in the phrase: ‘the {Orokarni}[Orocarni], the Mountains of the East’. Even so that is normaly not the way we do it must we not in this case provide the translation to allowe the connection to the Red Mountains of the Ambarcanta and the Maps? I suppose we exchange ‘Mountains of the East’ with ‘Red Mountains in the East’ and name that change CE-EX-05.4.

2. See posting #42 the removal of this was named CE-EX-05.3.

3. Thank you for pointing these out.

4. You are right, I agree to your suggestion.

5. Agreed.

6. Yes, your wish seems in agreement with ArcusCalion’s latest suggestion and seeing the plans for Volume 3 I can easily agree to this as well. Let us discuss how we handle the original text (which includes a sort of extract of this) when Aiwendil comes to that passage.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

CE-01: Yes, we should definitely include CE-EX-03

CE-EX-06: Looks good. I would simply remove CE-EX-24, especially since it has no basis in Tolkien's writings.

1. Agreed to the change CE-EX-05.4

2. Whoops, I must've missed that. Looks good to me.

[gandalf85]

CE-EX-35.5: Aiwendil's change looks good to me.

CE-EX-37: I agree with Fin's analysis. It is what I had assumed when reading the original text. Since his reworking makes it more clear, I agree to it.

CE-EX-39: I do not see why point 5 is contradictory and unworkable. Melkor's forces are defeated, and then he feigns remorse and repentance instead of choosing to fight on. I agree that the prose is more analytical at points rather than narrative, but I think if we want to include these points this is the best place to do it. I actually think Fin's original more chronological edit works better than his latest proposed change where there is a sort of reflection after the confrontation with Melkor. I propose either we use the original editing, or move all the extra-textual analysis about Melkor's dispersal of his power to Volume 3. I will think about it some more, but right now I'm leaning towards the former.

[gandalf85]

Just wanted to check in on how everyone is doing. I'm taking two classes at Signum this semester: Beyond Middle Earth (which focuses on Tolkien's short stories and academic work) and Beowulf in Old English (where we translate Beowulf into Modern English). It's keeping me pretty busy. How is everyone doing?

[Aiwendil]

I've been trying to find a chunk of time to continue reviewing this chapter. I'll really make an effort to do so in the next two or three days.

[Aiwendil]

We'll have to come back to the big unresolved issues regarding Myths Transformed, but for now here are some more comments up to CE-EX-52.

CE-EX-44: Typo "brook" for "broke":

CE-EX-44 <LT Tulkas and Ulmo {break}broke the gates of {Utumna}[Utumno]

Also, there's a missing {Melko}[Melkor]:

After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment,

But we also have a redundancy due to a combination of different texts:

After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).

Here we tell that the Valar returned to Valmar with Melkor twice, and this must be fixed irrespective of what we do about the MT story. Of course, as I have argued, I think the story of Melkor's voluntary surrender should be considered an unusable projection, and since the only new detail offered in the second statement here is that Tulkas followed behind clinking Angainor (whereas in the version I advocate, Melkor would be wearing Angainor), I would just remove it entirely:

After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> {Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).}

If we decide to keep the new story, I'd suggest instead deleting the LT statement. I also think that the footnote here is very out of place in a narrative text, even more than the body of the MT text, it is Tolkien analyzing his own writing. I'd delete it. Thus:

{After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.}> Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas{[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.]} who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).

CE-EX-45: There's a missing {Vali}[Valar]:

CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is} a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small

CE-EX-46:

CE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} Thereat arose {Palúrien}[Kementári] in sorrow and tears,

In LT, the "thereat" here refers to Palurien's reaction to Makar's argument. With that removed, it makes it appear that Yavanna is brought to tears by the words of Osse, Orome, etc. I think we should change "thereat" to simply "and", and move "arose" correspondingly:

CE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} {Thereat}And {arose} {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose in sorrow and tears,

CE-SL-14: Again, I think Melkor should be chained. But in any case, I don't see "writhed" as being inappropriate even if he is unchained; I don't think it necessarily implies straining against the chain.

CE-SL-15: Another instance where, if we follow my suggestion, Melkor will be chained and the change won't be needed.

Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.> But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).

Again here I think we have a bad tension between the MT story and that in the preceding section from LT. In MT, it is notable that Melkor was not given immediate freedom, since he submitted willingly. But the preceding section from LT allows no thought that Melkor could possibly be set free - especially since we have removed the one Vala who spoke in favour of him! At the very least, we have to delete the "but". "At the council" is also redundant, since we have already been narrating the council. If we keep the MT element of Melkor's willing submission, then I would emend thus:

Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.>

{But at the council} Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).

Then {he begins}Melkor began to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion - but he {is}was now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He {cannot}/could not do this/. Therefore he {swallows}swallowed the bitter pill (but it greatly {increases}increased his hate, and he ever {afterward}afterwards accused Manwë of being faithless).>

As with the other instances, this should be removed if we accept my argument that this new element not be incorporated.

CE-EX-47: If we accept my argument, this statement should be reinstated.

CE-SL-17:

CE-SL-17{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor{ at Utumno} had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.

This seems somewhat redundant with the LT insertion in CE-EX-44, so that we say twice that evil things lingered in those places. We should either delete one instance or combine them.

CE-EX-48: Is "Tuivana" still a valid name for Vana? I can't recall if it's used outside of LT.

CE-EX-49: I'm not sure about these "unelvish spirits", much less about Mandos's folk roaming Middle-earth.

CE-EX-50:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and }Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else

I think that with the deletion of the Measse bit, the "and" should be kept to introduce that sentence:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, a}[A]nd Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else

I also wonder about the description of Nienna as "cold to the Eldar as to all else" here; it seems to me that the Fui Nienna of LT is a much darker figure than the lady of pity and compassion she later became. So I would remove her from that sentence and have it refer only to Mandos:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and }Mandos{ and {Fui}[Niënna]} {were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else

And finally, we have the statement later (from LQ) that Mandos "had spoken not at all" during the debate. Now, one could argue that the reference here to him being "cold to the Eldar" does not imply that he spoke - and yet, if the implictaion here is not that Mandos and Fui took part in the debate and counselled against taking drastic action out of love for the Eldar, then one wonders why they would be mentioned here at all. So I tend to think that, in the end, even the mention of Mandos ought to be removed:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and Mandos{ and {Fui}[Niënna]} {were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else}

CE-EX-51:

Wherefore, albeit Ossë spake cautiously against it – belike out of that ever-smouldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo - it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manwë.

This has to change, since in the new version Ulmo is against the summons; therefore rebellion against Ulmo can't motivate Osse to speak against it. Without this, we have no information on what Osse's opinion would be - and moreover, it seems less likely in the later Legendarium that he would speak at a council of the Valar anyway. So I suggest:

CE-EX-51.1Wherefore{, albeit Ossë spake cautiously against it – belike out of that ever-smouldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo -} it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manwë.

CE-EX-52:

And Mandos who had spoken not at all in the debate broke silence and said: 'So it is doomed.' CE-EX-52 <AAm And Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen].> For of this summons came many woes that after befell; yet those who hold that the Valar erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, and seeking to wrest the will of Ilúvatar to their own pleasure, speak with the {tongues [read }tongue{]} of Melkor.

Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Oromë alone, and they were filled with dread.

The insertion from AAm seems to me to be in the wrong place, especially since the next sentence, starting with "for" refers back to Mandos's utterance. I think it would be better thus:

And Mandos who had spoken not at all in the debate broke silence and said: 'So it is doomed.' For of this summons came many woes that after befell; yet those who hold that the Valar erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, and seeking to wrest the will of Ilúvatar to their own pleasure, speak with the {tongues [read }tongue{]} of Melkor.

CE-EX-52 <AAm {And }Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen].> Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Oromë alone, and they were filled with dread.