Glorfindel

[ArcusCalion]

I like this change actually, I agree with gandalf's comments that it is currently an awkward start to a chapter, and this edit makes it much smoother. Personally, I think I am in favor of including this here and now. I would, however, use a different editing marker: GLOR-SL-02b and just include the removals into the existing GLOR-SL-02. This cleans up the text.

As for what the in-universe nature of this project is: simply, it's presented as Bilbo's official 'Translations from the Elvish' compiled from various sources around Rivendell. The books are said to have been added to and edited by Findegil, a scribe of Gondor during the Fourth Age, and in that format were preserved in the 'Thain's Book,' a copy of the Red Book of Westmarch containing the TftE, LotR, the Hobbit, and a large amount of unwritten material about Hobbits etc. Because Bilbo was compiling his work from a compilation of older sources, it follows exactly the format which we ourselves use in this project for the creation of our drafts. As to the question about Bilbo and his access to Glorfindel personally, this is true that he indeed had access. However, the TftE were (in the universe) transposed to Gondor, then in an unknown progression through around three or four more Ages till finally Tolkien supposedly found the Book and translated it. Thus, not all the chapters and notes in our text are necessarily required to be written by Bilbo himself. They may very well have been added at a later date by Findegil or unnamed other authors in the long unknown line of descent of textual preservation. (Of course, the real in-universe question of 'what is canonical is more complicated than this project can address. This project attempts to create an official 'canon' in the same way that CT did when he made the Silmarillion, and applies a universal standard to a varied body of texts to create a single unified narrative.)

[Findegil]

I agree to the change in general and like ArcusCalions simpler denotation. But is it right to use past tense for the verb ‘mean’ in this circumstances? I think it must be present since for everybody who knows the language ‘Glrofindel’ does still mean ‘Golden-tressed’, or not? So my suggestion would be:

GLOR-SL-02c{This name is in fact derived from the earliest work on the mythology: The Fall of Gondolin, composed in 1916-17, in which the Elvish language that ultimately became that of the type called Sindarin was in a primitive and unorganized form, and its relation with the High-elven type (itself very primitive) was still haphazard. It was intended to mean}Glorfindel means 'Golden-tressed', GLOR-SL-03{(4)} and was the name given to the heroic …

I am sorry to gainsay ArcusCalion in the matter of the in-universe nature of the project. It took some time but in the end the project members came to the conclusion that our texts do not intend to have in-universe equivalences. That means that the text does not try to represent anything written by an in-universe author. It tries to be the fullest ex-universe edition of the complete history being as far as possible in agreement with and complementary to the core cannon set by the 4 books about the legends of Eä published by JRR Tolkien (The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road goes ever on). As we found in many discussions that goal does counteract any attempt to create a text that claims any in-universe existence. The last example for such a discussion is found in the thread * *A New Project ~~~ Revising the Ainulindale* * (see especially the posting #83, #91 to #93, I linked to page 3 where these postings are).

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

Findegil, you are right about using the present tense for "mean". I assumed discussions about whether the text is in-universe had already taken place, but I could not find them. I will look through the topic you linked to.

[ArcusCalion]

Ah, my bad Fin, I was unaware of this idea. This makes more sense as it avoids a sticky in-universe justification for the edits we make.

[Elvellon]

>GLOR-SL-01 <Glorfindel II GLOR-SL-02c{This name is in fact derived from the earliest work on the mythology: The Fall of Gondolin, composed in 1916-17, in which the Elvish language that ultimately became that of the type called Sindarin was in a primitive and unorganized form, and its relation with the High-elven type (itself very primitive) was still haphazard. It was intended to mean}Glorfindel means ‘Golden-tressed’, GLOR-SL-03{(4)} and was the name given to the heroic {‘Gnome’ (}Ñoldo{)}, a chieftain of Gondolin, who in the pass of {Cristhorn}[Cirith Thoronath] (‘Eagle-cleft’) fought with a {Balrog [> }Demon{]}, whom he slew at the cost of his own life. GLOR-SL-04{
Its use in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as The Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings. This is unfortunate, since the name is now difficult to fit into Sindarin, and cannot possibly be Quenyarin. Also in the now organized mythology, difficulty is presented by the things recorded of Glorfindel in The Lord of the Rings, if Glorfindel of Gondolin is supposed to be the same person as Glorfindel of Rivendell.
As for the former: he} He was slain in the Fall of Gondolin at the end of the First Age, and GLOR-SL-04.5{if}was a chieftain of that city {must have been}and a Ñoldo, one of the Elf-lords in the host of King Turukáno (Turgon). GLOR-SL-05{; at any rate when The Fall of Gondolin was written he was certainly thought to be so.}

Reading it as plain text, this is repetitive:

Glorfindel means ‘Golden-tressed’, and was the name given to the heroic Ñoldo, a chieftain of Gondolin, who in the pass of Cirith Thoronath (‘Eagle-cleft’) fought with a Demon, whom he slew at the cost of his own life.

He was slain in the Fall of Gondolin at the end of the First Age, and was a chieftain of that city and a Ñoldo, one of the Elf-lords in the host of King Turukáno (Turgon).

[Findegil]

You are right we have to eliminat that repetition. What about this editing:

GLOR-SL-01 <Glorfindel II GLOR-SL-02c{This name is in fact derived from the earliest work on the mythology: The Fall of Gondolin, composed in 1916-17, in which the Elvish language that ultimately became that of the type called Sindarin was in a primitive and unorganized form, and its relation with the High-elven type (itself very primitive) was still haphazard. It was intended to mean}Glorfindel means 'Golden-tressed', GLOR-SL-03{(4)} and was the name given to the heroic {'Gnome' (}Ñoldo{)}, a chieftain of Gondolin, GLOR-SL-03.5 <moved from below one of the Elf-lords in the host of King Turukáno (Turgon),> who in the pass of {Cristhorn}[Cirith Thoronath] ('Eagle-cleft') fought with a {Balrog [> }Demon{]}, whom he slew at the cost of his own life GLOR-SL-04b{.
Its use in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as The Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings. This is unfortunate, since the name is now difficult to fit into Sindarin, and cannot possibly be Quenyarin. Also in the now organized mythology, difficulty is presented by the things recorded of Glorfindel in The Lord of the Rings, if Glorfindel of Gondolin is supposed to be the same person as Glorfindel of Rivendell.
As for the former: he was slain in the Fall of Gondolin} at the end of the First AgeGLOR-SL-05b{, and if a chieftain of that city must have been a Ñoldo, one of the Elf-lords in the host of King Turukáno (Turgon); at any rate when The Fall of Gondolin was written he was certainly thought to be so}. But the Noldor in Beleriand were exiles from Valinor, having rebelled against the authority of Manwë supreme head of the Valar, ...

And in plain text that means:

Glorfindel means 'Golden-tressed', and was the name given to the heroic Ñoldo, a chieftain of Gondolin, one of the Elf-lords in the host of King Turukáno (Turgon), who in the pass of Cirith Thoronath ('Eagle-cleft') fought with a Demon, whom he slew at the cost of his own life at the end of the First Age. But the Noldor in Beleriand were exiles from Valinor, having rebelled against the authority of Manwë supreme head of the Valar, ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Looks good to me!