The Ring Sets Out

[ArcusCalion]

Thank you for the kudos Fin, much appreciated.

I must admit I am somewhat confused by your structuring changes. This is how it seems to me that you wish to have the last chapters laid out:

The War of the Ring
- The Shadow Grows
- The Hunt for the Ring
-- Of the Journey of the Black Rider According to the Account that Gandalf Gave to Frodo
-- The Ring Sets Out
- The Ring in Shadow
- The Battles of the Fords of Isen
The End of the Third Age

I see why you propose some of these, but some are confusing to me. I will go through them one at a time.

Overall Structure Notes: You are right that the events in these chapters may be termed as part of the War of the Ring. However, I did not put them under a single heading for two reasons: 1) This leaves us with no title for the events of Return of the King, which, I think, above all other divisions need their own title. 2) In the narrative Synopsis of the events of the story we have this quote from Tolkien:

Even as they reached the Cross-roads and took the path to the ghastly city of Minas Morgul, a great darkness issued from Mordor, covering all the lands. Then Sauron sent forth his first army, led by the black King of the Ringwraiths: the War of the Ring had begun.

This puts the official start of the War of the Ring midway through the events of the Two Towers, so I think we are justified in referring to the last battles as the War of the Ring proper, while the other buildup was more of the kindling that lit the fire. I know this is a subject for debate, but I think it is more important to have a title for the Return of the King events, and so I would really prefer to keep The War of the Ring as the title for the next chapter. That being, said I am open to some restructuring possibilities. I am open to moving the events from RSO-SL-22 to the end into the next chapter, which would mean moving the subheading The Battles of the Fords of Isen to the next chapter as well.

Second Remark: I agree to the movement of the texts in this way, aside from two things. 1) I think they would be better placed after TS-SL-14, since Bilbo's party happened long after the births of Faramir and Boromir, and placing it before they're mentioned gives the impression that the opposite is true, and that at the time of the War of the Ring they would only be around 17 years old! 2) I do not agree to the creation of a new chapter, or of the heading The Shadow Grows. I am unsure where this heading comes from, but it seems to me to be unsourced, which we must avoid at all costs. Therefore, I think to simply leave the text at the end of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen is fine. We have a long history in the project of including events inside chapters and stories where they are not necessarily immediately relevant to the title name, but I think it is ok to do so. If you think we absolutely cannot leave them in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, then we should move them to the very beginning of The Hunt for the Ring.
Sidenote: the slightly different editing of HR-SL-01.5 looks good, but it should say 'had elapsed.'

Last Point of Structural Criticism: This looks perfect Fin, and I was actually thinking it should have been structured better, so thank you. I only have one comment, which is that I would prefer the first subheading to simply be Of the Journey of the Black Riders, as the full title seems needlessly long, perhaps the second part (According to the Account Gandalf Gave to Frodo) can be placed underneath the subheading, but I suppose any option is fine really, just an aesthetic preference.

Fin's Ending Comments: I do not think we need the subheading The Ring in Shadow, as The Ring Sets Out still applies. I am also not sure where this title comes from, so I think it is best to leave it out.
As to the comment about expanding the outline reference to Angmar, I agree.

I see your point about dates, and I agree. Would you like to go through your copies to make sure the dates are all in order? I will do the same with mine.

P.S. As a summary, I think this is the best final structure:

- The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen
- The Hunt for the Ring
-- Of the Journey of the Black Riders
-- The Ring Sets Out
- The Treason of Isengard
-- The Battles of the Fords of Isen
- The War of the Ring
- The End of the Third Age

(See the next post for the Treason of Isengard chapter)

[ArcusCalion]

I just had an idea: What if from RSO-SL-22 through to just before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields could be its own chapter called The Treason of Isengard, since the vast bulk of the chapter will be made up of The Battles of the Fords of Isen, as well as the events of the LotR Synopsis that deal with The Two Towers and Saruman's treachery. I think this would work best, and allow us to use The War of the Ring for the events of Return of the King, and allow us to keep The End of the Third Age as the chapter that tells of the aftermath.

Edit: The chapter heading would be FY-HL-18.5. The chapter would basically consist of all the material displaced from this chapter, with this small addition at the end:

TI-SL-01 <LotR Synopsis In the parley before the door Saruman refused to repent, and Gandalf deposed him and broke his staff, leaving him to the vigilance of the Ents. From a high tower Wormtongue hurled a stone at Gandalf; but it missed him, and it was picked up by Peregrin. This proved to be one of the three surviving palantíri, the Seeing Stones of Númenor. Later at night Peregrin succumbed to the lure of the Stone; he stole it and looked in it, and so was revealed to Sauron. TI-SL-02 {The book ended with the coming of a}A Nazgûl came over the plains of Rohan, a Ringwraith mounted on a flying steed, presage of imminent war. Gandalf delivered the palantír to Aragorn, and taking Peregrin rode away to Minas Tirith.>

The next chapter, The War of the Ring, would thus open with the journey of Frodo and Sam to Mordor. Thoughts?

[Findegil]

Sorry for being not clear enough. I mentioned the possibility of using The War of the Ring as overall title just as OPTION.
I fully agree to keep The War of the Ring as title for the next chapter!

RSO-SL-01 & RSO-SL-01.5 after TS-SL-14: Agree. This arangment makes much more sense. But I obsereved that we have to change HR-SL-01 slightly:[quote] HR-SL-01<ORP Now by fortune and his vigilance Mithrandir had first learned of the Ring, ere Sauron had news of it; ...[/b]

The Shadow Grows, The Ring in the Shadow and The War of the Ring or The Return of the King wer the first idea for titles of three volumes of the LotR. It is recorded in Letters; 136. The next stage in the development from Letters, 137 & 139 was The Return of the Shadow, The Shadow Lengthens and The Return of the King. In Letters; 140 we came near to the final with The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and [/b]The War of the Ring[/b]. The Discussion was settled in the end mutal between Rayner Unwin and JRR Tolkien on The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King.

That means the title have a source in JRR Tolkien. Nonetheless we can discuss if we should creat this very short chapter, or take it with or without a sub-chapter heading into one of the others. If you don’t like the short separate chapter I would leave TS-SL-14 at the end of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen and take RSO-SL-01 & RSO-SL-01.5 at the beginning of The Hunt for the Ring, boith without sub-heading.

HR-SL-01.5: Agreed.

FY-HL-17.5: Since at least in my format ]Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo does anyhow occupy 2 lines we are free to place the line break behind ‘Black Riders’. But I would shy back from using brakets. I see no reason allowed by our rules for this insertion.

FY-HL-18.5: I could agree to use the title The Treason of Isengard here for that part of the story you named. But we might need that title else where (see below). Anyhow I would keep the (sub-) heading The Ring in the Shadow for the first part. A sub-heading does not have any relevance in the next chapter, so [i]The Ring Sets Out[/b] can no longer ‘apply’. I think we would in this case need a third sub-heading or must at least separate the last part about the Battle of the Hornburg and the parley at Orthanc. For this The Treason of Isengard is also a well fitting candiadat. And I found no other. Any idea?
Anyhow I think we miss something. Is there nothing to fill the gape between ‘Grimbold's men he sent southward to join Erkenbrand.> RSO-SL-28<editorial addition Thus they came to the Battle of the Hornburg in time to win the field.>’ and ‘TI-SL-01<LotR Synopsis In the parley before the door Saruman refused to repent, and Gandalf deposed him and broke his staff, leaving him to the vigilance of the Ents.’?

To be more clear then last time, here the structure I anvision, with some remarks in breakets what is included:

- The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (ending with the death of Aragorn’s mother)
- The Shadow Grows (Giving the Info about Denethor and his sons and of Bilbo leaving the shire.)
- The Hunt for the Ring (HR-SL-01 & HR-SL-01.5)
-- Of the Journey of the Black Riders
according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo (From Mordor to the Shire)
-- The Ring Set Out (From the shire to Rivendell)
- The Treason of Isengard
-- The Ring in the Shadow (The journey of the Fellowship to Rauros and then farther on to Rohan)
-- The Battles of the Fords of Isen (similar as in UT)
-- * * * (The Battle of Hornburg and the parley at Orthanc)
The War of the Ring
The End of the Third Age

About dates: Okay, I will make the changes in my working copy.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Some good notes Fin! Sorry I was confused.

RSO-SL-01, RSO-SL-01.5, and TS-SL-14: I am glad you agree to the shift, and now that I know that the title has a Tolkien source, I agree to use it, but I think it would be better as a subheading in the chapter The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. If you think we should then put the RSO additions into the beginning of The Hunt for the Ring then I agree, and I agree to the change to HR-SL-01 if that is the structure you prefer, but personally I am fine with leaving them all under the subheading in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

FY-HL-17.5: I did not mean the brackets would be included in the text, they were just for clarification of my comment. That part of the title would just be in the second line, perhaps in smaller font.

FY-HL-18.5: I see your structure and I think it is a good idea. However, I think a better title would be The Shadow Lengthens instead of The Ring in the Shadow, since that title refers to the journey of Frodo and Sam. We could use that subheading in the next chapter.

[Findegil]

RSO-SL-01, RSO-SL-01.5 and TS-SL-14: I am also okay with keeping these together under a sub-heading within The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

FY-HL-16.5 and FY-HL-21: I can understand your desire to use The Ring in the Shadow in a later place. I have no problem to use both The Shadow Grows and The Shadow Lengthens, but I would switch these. For me, but that is of course a bit personal feeling, ‘Grows’ is ‘stronger’ more menaceing verb, while ‘Lengthens’ is less threatening, since it is more natural: If the sun goes down every shadow will lengthen, so the object that does creat the shadow has still the same size. But if the shadow grows, the assumption is that the object casting the shadow grows.
To be clear I would use FY-HL-16.5c The Shadow Lengthens for ‘Giving the account of Denethor and his sons and of Bilbo leaving the shire’ in the chapter The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen and FY-HL-21b The Shadow Grows for ‘The journey of the Fellowship to Rauros and then farther on to Rohan’ in the chapter The Treason of Isengard.

FY-HL-17.5: I don’t see the smaller font, but we could repress it from going into the contents.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

FY-HL-16.5/21: Agreed, this makes sense.

FY-HL-17.5: Yeah this is a small matter, we don't need to spend time on it. We are essentially in enough agreement to move forward.

I must say, the structuring changes of the past few chapters have been crazy, but the final result is sooo much better than any of the original ideas, so thank you Fin!

[Findegil]

As I said before I am not happy with the Battle oft he Hornburg not descript after a long account oft he battle oft he ords of Isen. But as I did not find any material to work with (since it is not given, Christopher Tolkien concentrats on the drafts that show differences and leaves out all drafts that are similar to the later story in his treatmeant of the Helm’ Deep) we can not amand that point. Therefore I think the supposed sub-headline ‘* * *’ is unnecessary. But nonetheless I would like to change the agaranment of the text’s slightly:

RSO-SL-25{The second part (Books Three and Four), The Two Towers, recounted}Among the deeds of all the company after the breaking of the Fellowship ...
...
...
...
... With him they rode over Rohan to the halls of King Théoden of the Mark, where Gandalf healed the aged king, and rescued him from the spells of RSO-SL-26<editorial addition Gríma> Wormtongue, his evil counsellor, secret ally of Saruman. They rode then with the king and his host against the forces of Isengard{, and took part in the desperate victory of the Hornburg}.>FY-HL-19b<
The Battles of the Fords of Isen
>RSO-SL-27<BFI The chief obstacles to an easy conquest of Rohan by Saruman were Théodred and Éomer ...
...
...
...
What followed is less clear, since only Gandalf had full knowledge of it. He received news of the disaster only in the late afternoon of March the {3rd}third. RSO-SL-27.5<based on LotR, Appendix B By this time was Erkenbrand defeated.> RSO-SL-27.7<based on UT; The Drúedain; Note 13 So he <moved from below had{ been} driven away southwards parts<moved from below of Saruman’s forces>{A marginal jotting states that after}. After the Battle of the Fords of Isen it was found that many Drúedain did indeed survive in the Drúwaith Iaur, for they came forth from the caves where they dwelt to attack remnants of Saruman's forces that had been driven away southwards.> {The}In the late afternoon of March the third the King was{ then} at a point not far east of the junction of the Road with the branch going to the Hornburg. From there it was about ninety miles in a direct line to Isengard; and Gandalf must have ridden there with the greatest speed that Shadowfax could command. He reached Isengard in the early darkness, [Footnote to the text: As the narrative suggests, Gandalf must already have made contact with Treebeard, and knew that the patience of the Ents was at an end; and he had also read the meaning of Legolas' words: Isengard was veiled in an impenetrable shadow, the Ents had already surrounded it.] and left again in no more than twenty minutes. Both on the outward journey, when his direct route would take him close to the Fords, and on his return south to find Erkenbrand, he must have met Grimbold and Elfhelm. They were convinced that he was acting for the King, not only by his appearance on Shadowfax, but also by his knowledge of the name of the errand-rider, Ceorl, and the message that he brought; and they took as orders the advice that he gave. Grimbold's men he sent southward to join Erkenbrand.> RSO-SL-28<editorial addition Thus they came to the Battle of the Hornburg in time to win the field.>
RSO-SL-28.5<Letter to Milton Waldman{They roder then}Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas with the king and his host{ against the forces of Isengard, and} took part in the desperate victory of the Hornburg Hornburg <moved from above against the forces of Isengard>. Gandalf then led them to Isengard, and they found the great fortress in ruins by the Tree-folk, and Saruman and Wormtongue besieged in the indomitable tower of Orthanc.>
TI-SL-01<LotR Synopsis In the parley before the door Saruman refused to repent, ...

I added RSO-SL-27.5 and RSO-SL-27.7 as these make more clear what happend in the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen, and moved the complet text of The Battels of the Fords of Isen a bit to collect the few mentions we have of the Battle of the Hornburg.

As all that is left of the Appendices that ArcusCalion had planed is only The Marshals of the Mark I wonder if we should not give this text here as an Appendix to this chapter.

Respectfully
Findegil