Tolkien's Views on Creation and Evolution

[Morthoron]

As an atheist, I would caution a 1+1=2 view of Tolkien's creation equaling the biblical or Christian concept of the Beginning. Unlike the Christian allegorist and apologist C.S. Lewis, whose literary output leaves me cold (save for The Screwtape Letters, which are hilarious) Tolkien drew on more than just biblical concepts when he created his cosmology, and it was that synthesis of various cultures' mythos that gives his fantasy far more depth and interest. Thus, he could captivate a non-Christian like myself as well as any pedestrian Presbyterian.

First, the idea of music being an integral part of creation is not a Christian concept, but rather familiar to Celtic/Bardic legends (such as in Taliesin), as well as Norse myth (Braggi, the Golden Harp and the Song of Life), and Finnish myth (wherein Väinämöinen fashioned a harp out of salmon bones that was used eventually by sea gods to create the music of the ocean on the beach). There are also such concepts in Hindu (the Rigvedic Hymns) and Aztec myth (Quetzalcoatl and the Music of the Sun).

Second, the Valar's more than coincidental likeness to the Greek Pantheon of gods or of the Norse Æsir, and the hierarchy and marriages found therein. Each individual Vala is endowed with certain powers matching any number of gods/goddesses of the hunt, the sea, crafting, the wood...and wrestling! Mandos is equivalent to the Greek Fates or the Norse Norns with the added dimension of having the responsibilities of Hades.

Third, Melkor is not merely an equivalent of the fallen Angel Lucifer, tempting men's souls, he is rather the corrupter of Arda itself (see "Morgoth's Ring"). Such corruptive deities who scar the very earth, control the seasons and are enemies of light can be found in Slavic, Persian, Finnish and Celtic myth.

Fourth, the other disparate legends and myths that are interwoven throughout Tolkien's early cosmology, everything from the Finnish Kalavela copied to create the tale of Turin Turambar to the Atlantis myth reworked into the Akallabêth (Atalantë in Quenya). The legend of Tilion the moon and Arien the sun used to describe the wayward lunar orbit is very much crafted in the style of Greek and Norse myths, as is Ossë a personification of the capricious, violent and unfathomable sea. Even Angainor (the chain of Melkor) could be compared to the binding of Fenrir with the enchanted Gleipnir. Another that springs to mind is when Luthien sang to release the spirit of Beren and herself from the Halls of Mandos, which has a direct correlation to Orpheus melting the cold heart of Hades to release his love Eurydice from the Underworld.

So, yes, Christian symbology, but there's a whole lotta heathen going on!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

From what I have read above, nothing seems to me like Tolkien could not have seen the "old" stories (=Genesis etc.) as metaphors, in the same sense many modern (=including in his time) Christians/Catholics see them. The Letter 96 quoted above seems to me would make perfect sense exactly in such a case.

I mean, the idea is, most people don't really think about it unless you intentionally push them into answering a specific question, like: "So were the seven days of creation literal or not?" But majority of believers would not think about it. Both Genesis and the fact that somebody dug up a 65 million year old dinosaur can be true at the same time. Because for example the biblical account doesn't really operate with such cathegories. The Bible is not interested in knowing, or asking you, how many years has it been since the Flood. Its core is in something else, it revolves around the following of God and shows the recordings of other people who followed God in their time, they are now the witnesses for those who read it, who can see themselves as parts of the same story (I am sure Tolkien would have liked that metaphore).

So I really don't think Tolkien would have felt the need to create any "either-or" picture in his head. The whole misconception that "science" and "religion" are in some way mutually exclusive comes in large part from modern positivist thinking and everything that followed from there. Which, sure, was up and running still in Tolkien's times. But a massive amount of Catholics also at the time - even Catholic priests - were also scientists, including people who made big work in biology, geology, astronomy... all the while when operating not under the "creationist" paradigm (in the sense of the word as it's mostly used now: literal creation in 7 days etc), but under the paradigm of the science at their time.

The letter 96 quoted above seems to me like showing that Tolkien took Genesis, most of all, as a story. Yes, Gospels are so close to the time of the events they describe that even the geographic details etc we can take as "historical truths"; we can't say the same about the rest. At the same time, if Tolkien imagined Eden as "real" - sure, but such an Eden could have been in Africa a few million years ago, for all practical purposes. The main point is that it doesn't matter where, what matters is that the story is fundamentally true: not in its geographic or chronological cathegories, but it is true always, throughout the history, it is true now, it is true about Tolkien's generation, it is true about current generation. And so on. That's what "myth" is.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

From what I have read above, nothing seems to me like Tolkien could not have seen the "old" stories (=Genesis etc.) as metaphors, in the same sense many modern (=including in his time) Christians/Catholics see them. The Letter 96 quoted above seems to me would make perfect sense exactly in such a case.

Could be yes. However given he said the same of Jesus and the Crucifixion [events he said were actual history] it lends to the opposite. I think post 4 indicates that was his belief. Plus the fact he and the inklings held to the historical reality of the garden of eden and the fall.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I mean, the idea is, most people don't really think about it unless you intentionally push them into answering a specific question, like: "So were the seven days of creation literal or not?" But majority of believers would not think about it. Both Genesis and the fact that somebody dug up a 65 million year old dinosaur can be true at the same time. Because for example the biblical account doesn't really operate with such cathegories. The Bible is not interested in knowing, or asking you, how many years has it been since the Flood. Its core is in something else, it revolves around the following of God and shows the recordings of other people who followed God in their time, they are now the witnesses for those who read it, who can see themselves as parts of the same story (I am sure Tolkien would have liked that metaphore).

The Inklings however often discussed this issue and thought it over. I agree that many would go along with what you have said, i disagree. But than who cares of me? What did tolkien think?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So I really don't think Tolkien would have felt the need to create any "either-or" picture in his head.

that could be very true. But he could also have held to the genesis creation account as the few indicators i gave above seem to suggest.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The whole misconception that "science" and "religion" are in some way mutually exclusive comes in large part from modern positivist thinking and everything that followed from there. Which, sure, was up and running still in Tolkien's times. But a massive amount of Catholics also at the time - even Catholic priests - were also scientists, including people who made big work in biology, geology, astronomy... all the while when operating not under the "creationist" paradigm (in the sense of the word as it's mostly used now: literal creation in 7 days etc), but under the paradigm of the science at their time.

Well i agree fully, but my op has nothing to do with science, but evolution that anti scientific belief held by many sadly even within the scientific community. Yes most all scientist of the past and the originators of science were Christians. That is because science only makes sense within the biblical worldview, not the atheistic evolutionary worldview.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The letter 96 quoted above seems to me like showing that Tolkien took Genesis, most of all, as a story. Yes, Gospels are so close to the time of the events they describe that even the geographic details etc we can take as "historical truths"; we can't say the same about the rest. At the same time, if Tolkien imagined Eden as "real" - sure, but such an Eden could have been in Africa a few million years ago, for all practical purposes. The main point is that it doesn't matter where, what matters is that the story is fundamentally true: not in its geographic or chronological cathegories, but it is true always, throughout the history, it is true now, it is true about Tolkien's generation, it is true about current generation. And so on. That's what "myth" is.

Agreed, as the Crucifixion was also a "story" but actual events within history. But i think your right, to Tolkien [not to me] I do agree that just because he held to a literal historical garden of eden, that does not conclude he was a young earth creationist. That is why in my op i said i think he was likely an old earth creationist or ID as other statements seem to indicate he accepted an old earth.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Evidence Tolkien seemed to believe in an old earth from letters 64.



On Thursday I gave 2 lectures and had some troublesome business in town and was too tired to attend the Lewis seance. I hope to see him tomorrow, and read some more of 'the Ring'. It is growing and sprouting again (I did a whole day at it yesterday to the neglect of many matters) and opening out in unexpected ways. So far in the new chapters Frodo and Sam have traversed Sam Gebir, climbed down the cliff, encountered and temporarily tamed Gollum. They have with his guidance crossed the Dead Marshes and the slag-heaps of Mordor, lain in hiding outside the main gates and found them impassable, and set out for a more secret entrance near Minas Morghul (formerly M. Ithil). It will turn out to be the deadly Kirith Ungol and Gollum will play false. But at moment they are in Ithilien (which is proving a lovely land); there has been a lot of bother about stewed rabbit; and they have been captured by Gondorians, and witnessed them ambushing a Swerting army (dark men of South) marching to Mordor's aid. A large elephant of prehistoric size, a war-elephant of the Swertings, is loose, and Sam has gratified a life-long wish to see an Oliphaunt, an animal about which there was a hobbit nursery-rhyme (though it was commonly supposed to be mythical).




Here it seems he accepts "prehistoric" time period of earth history from the uniformitarnism perspective. Of course if one really wanted him to be a young earth creationist we might say he was simply using the common terminology for a woolly mammoth size type creature similar to how creationist scientist also will refer to the geological column by the standard language. Or perhaps "prehistoric" as in pre middle earth third age historical writings unlike the myth/legends of the sillmarillion. However I think the clear reading strongly suggest his acceptance of an old earth.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As an atheist, I would caution a 1+1=2 view of Tolkien's creation equaling the biblical or Christian concept of the Beginning. Unlike the Christian allegorist and apologist C.S. Lewis, whose literary output leaves me cold (save for The Screwtape Letters, which are hilarious) Tolkien drew on more than just biblical concepts when he created his cosmology, and it was that synthesis of various cultures' mythos that gives his fantasy far more depth and interest. Thus, he could captivate a non-Christian like myself as well as any pedestrian Presbyterian.

First, the idea of music being an integral part of creation is not a Christian concept, but rather familiar to Celtic/Bardic legends (such as in Taliesin), as well as Norse myth (Braggi, the Golden Harp and the Song of Life), and Finnish myth (wherein Väinämöinen fashioned a harp out of salmon bones that was used eventually by sea gods to create the music of the ocean on the beach). There are also such concepts in Hindu (the Rigvedic Hymns) and Aztec myth (Quetzalcoatl and the Music of the Sun).

Second, the Valar's more than coincidental likeness to the Greek Pantheon of gods or of the Norse Æsir, and the hierarchy and marriages found therein. Each individual Vala is endowed with certain powers matching any number of gods/goddesses of the hunt, the sea, crafting, the wood...and wrestling! Mandos is equivalent to the Greek Fates or the Norse Norns with the added dimension of having the responsibilities of Hades.

Third, Melkor is not merely an equivalent of the fallen Angel Lucifer, tempting men's souls, he is rather the corrupter of Arda itself (see "Morgoth's Ring"). Such corruptive deities who scar the very earth, control the seasons and are enemies of light can be found in Slavic, Persian, Finnish and Celtic myth.

Fourth, the other disparate legends and myths that are interwoven throughout Tolkien's early cosmology, everything from the Finnish Kalavela copied to create the tale of Turin Turambar to the Atlantis myth reworked into the Akallabêth (Atalantë in Quenya). The legend of Tilion the moon and Arien the sun used to describe the wayward lunar orbit is very much crafted in the style of Greek and Norse myths, as is Ossë a personification of the capricious, violent and unfathomable sea. Even Angainor (the chain of Melkor) could be compared to the binding of Fenrir with the enchanted Gleipnir. Another that springs to mind is when Luthien sang to release the spirit of Beren and herself from the Halls of Mandos, which has a direct correlation to Orpheus melting the cold heart of Hades to release his love Eurydice from the Underworld.

So, yes, Christian symbology, but there's a whole lotta heathen going on!

Vary good points. He did not of course take only from Genesis but other works as well. However just because that is so it does not negate his belief in a literal fall, garden of eden, or the genesis account of creation. More so it does not show that he accepted evolution or rejected creation. But only that the fact he used some of genesis in his creation does not conclude he accepted it as historical fact by itself. Had he used evolution in the sillmarillion now that would be interesting.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As an atheist, I would caution a 1+1=2 view of Tolkien's creation equaling the biblical or Christian concept of the Beginning. Unlike the Christian allegorist and apologist C.S. Lewis, whose literary output leaves me cold (save for The Screwtape Letters, which are hilarious) Tolkien drew on more than just biblical concepts when he created his cosmology, and it was that synthesis of various cultures' mythos that gives his fantasy far more depth and interest. Thus, he could captivate a non-Christian like myself as well as any pedestrian Presbyterian.

First, the idea of music being an integral part of creation is not a Christian concept, but rather familiar to Celtic/Bardic legends (such as in Taliesin), as well as Norse myth (Braggi, the Golden Harp and the Song of Life), and Finnish myth (wherein Väinämöinen fashioned a harp out of salmon bones that was used eventually by sea gods to create the music of the ocean on the beach). There are also such concepts in Hindu (the Rigvedic Hymns) and Aztec myth (Quetzalcoatl and the Music of the Sun).

Second, the Valar's more than coincidental likeness to the Greek Pantheon of gods or of the Norse Æsir, and the hierarchy and marriages found therein. Each individual Vala is endowed with certain powers matching any number of gods/goddesses of the hunt, the sea, crafting, the wood...and wrestling! Mandos is equivalent to the Greek Fates or the Norse Norns with the added dimension of having the responsibilities of Hades.

Third, Melkor is not merely an equivalent of the fallen Angel Lucifer, tempting men's souls, he is rather the corrupter of Arda itself (see "Morgoth's Ring"). Such corruptive deities who scar the very earth, control the seasons and are enemies of light can be found in Slavic, Persian, Finnish and Celtic myth.

Fourth, the other disparate legends and myths that are interwoven throughout Tolkien's early cosmology, everything from the Finnish Kalavela copied to create the tale of Turin Turambar to the Atlantis myth reworked into the Akallabêth (Atalantë in Quenya). The legend of Tilion the moon and Arien the sun used to describe the wayward lunar orbit is very much crafted in the style of Greek and Norse myths, as is Ossë a personification of the capricious, violent and unfathomable sea. Even Angainor (the chain of Melkor) could be compared to the binding of Fenrir with the enchanted Gleipnir. Another that springs to mind is when Luthien sang to release the spirit of Beren and herself from the Halls of Mandos, which has a direct correlation to Orpheus melting the cold heart of Hades to release his love Eurydice from the Underworld.

So, yes, Christian symbology, but there's a whole lotta heathen going on!

So i responded before in agreement but did some more thinking and reading. The sillmarillion as published was of course his early works and very "northern" in it material. His later sillmarillion took on as Christopher said "theological and philosophical" ideas would have taken on a much more christian form. I am sure the HOME will verify this when i read them. So of course this later published version by Christopher will be more pagan. Having said that

That a single God spoke the world materiall and not, into being is a biblical concept. One god creating and gen 1.26 has been interpreted by many Christians as god working through and with angels in his creation. Angels of course in ME are as tolkien said are maia and valar. Thus when the maia and valar help in creation, it is constant with gen 1.26. Further unlike pagan myths, the angels dont create on their own but are given music by eru and perform the task they were given all comes from god alone. Neither are these co-creators worshiped as in pagan myths.




In tolkiens work "evil" corrupts the very earth and environment. A great book on this is

Ents, Elves, and Eriador the Environmental Vision of J.R.R Tolkien by Matthew Dickerson and Jonathan Evans Kentucky University press 2006.

It does not have to be some angel deity but any evil by nature will corrupt it surroundings. Thus orcs, goblins will do the same.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Some Relevant to the topic Biblical and Christian Themes in the LOTR


“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work.”
-J.R.R Tolkien


“In LOTR the conflict is not basically about “freedom,” though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and his sole right to divine honor. The Eldar and the Numenoreans believed in the one, the true god, and held worship of any other person an abomination. Sauron desired to be a god-king, and was held to be this by his servants.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

As a devout catholic, Tolkien’s worldview could not be hidden in his works. His worldview is the worldview that produced the LOTR. He included many Christian and biblical themes into his works. He did not however like straight allegory and disliked C.S Lewis’ strong Christian allegory (Lewis, who sought to give Christianity a home in mythology, used strong Christian allegory). Tolkien said, “I have written a tail which is built on or out of certain religious ideas but is not an allegory of them.” Of first most importance, Tolkien’s work was to be for enjoyment, yet he knew he could not withhold his own worldview. At a lecture at Saint Andrews, Tolkien said LOTR was a specifically a Christian venture to write such a story as he was now engaged in. Wheaton College (IL) professor Clyde Kilby once sent Tolkien a paper by a professor in New South Wales that argued, “At every point, the human dynamics of The Lord of the Rings are drawn from the tradition ascribed to Christ’s redemptive activity.” Tolkien wrote back to Kilby and said that this was true, though not always conscious on his part. A student said he feels “clean” after reading LOTR, with no sex, morality, power, and with its concern for ethical/spiritual life.

“The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“Myth and fairy-story must, all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth.”
-J R.R Tolkien quoted in David Day The Battles of Tolkien Thunder Bay Press San Diego CA 2017

Tolkien included many aspects of biblical theology into his books. Councils of the past play a large role in catholic thinking, doctrine, and decision’s on important issues. In LOTR there are many councils that decide the fate of Middle Earth, such as at the council of Elrond or the Ent moot. In the book “Walking with Frodo, a devotional journey through LOTR,” author Sarah Arthur goes through the many choices faced by LOTR characters good versus evil with biblical counterparts and lesson. It includes chapters on darkness/light, pride/humility, corruption/integrity, betrayal/loyalty, deceit/honesty, control/servant hood, bondage/freedom, and despair/hope. The creation of Middle Earth was by singing, just as in the bible, God spoke creation into existence. “The elf food called “lembas,” was clearly reminiscent of the Eucharistic wafer.” Tolkien said Elendil was a Noahchian figure [Noah]. He said Aman was a form of purgatory for Frodo and mortals until their eternal destination. When Tolkien said that Frodo gave into the ring of power, but that he was still a “good” person, he was thinking of 1 Corinthians 12 and 13 and the Lord's Prayer. Some see similarities between the highest angel Manwe, and the biblical arch angel Micheal. Biblical marriage, monogamy, was commonly practiced in the West by the free people. Other systems of marriage or union were regarded as “things only done under the shadow.” Tolkien said Frodo was under demonic pressure bearing the ring, and was given grace, divine grace, to carry out his task. Much of Galadrial comes from the teachings of Mary the mother of Jesus.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien


The Fall From Eden and Restoration


“There cannot be any story without a fall- all stories are ultimately about the fall.”
-J .R.R Tolkien quoted in David Day The Battles of Tolkien Thunder Bay Press San Diego CA 2017

“Tolkien believed devoutly that there had once been an Eden on earth, and that mans original sin and subsequent dethronement were responsible for the ills of the world
---* Humphrey Carpenter J.R. R Tolkien The Authorized Biography Houghton Mifflin company NY 2000

Tolkien believed strongly there had been an Eden on earth and that man’s original sin was responsible for this fallen world. The immortal Elves for all intent and purposes were men before the fall. Like the world pre fall (Garden of Eden), Lorien was without “stain,” no death, sickness or curse. The Elves represent the eternal and supernatural aspects of humanity and are the creatures most like eru(God). Elves by nature are good, but can be seduced. At the council of Elrond, Elrond says, “Nothing is evil in the beginning, even Sauron was not so.” This is a Christian understanding of evil, that God’s original creation was good, with no death or suffering and evil. The devil himself was created “good” and an angel of light. Andreth says that men were born to live everlasting in the beginning just as the bible teaches. The elves thought God’s gift to man was death, because to go on as fallen creatures in a fallen world forever would be worse. And when the men of Númenóreans* were upset over the human race dying while elves and valar did not, the immortal valar replied

“Thus you escape, and leave the world and are not bound by it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others”

And reflecting the biblical teachings in Revelations chapter 21, Andreth says, “The one [God] will himself enter into Arda, and heal men and all the marring from the beginning to the end.” Tolkien said, “Fantasy serves as “A far off gleam or echo of evangelium [good news gospel] in the real world.” In the history of Middle Earth, when Arwen dies, it says “There is her green grave, until the world is changed.” In the Hobbit it says, “The world will ultimately be “renewed.” “The world was fair, the mountains tall in elder days before the fall,” says Gimli. And Thorin said to Bilbo at his death “I go to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers, until the world is renewed.”


Melkor’s fall was like that of Satan in the bible. Like Satan Melkor fell “From splendor, he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitless. Understanding he turned subtly in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame. He began with the desire of light [creative action] but when he could not posses it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into great burning, down into darkness and darkness he used most in his evil works upon arda and filled it with fear for all living things.”

Like Melkor, The biblical tempter, the angel cast out of heaven, the father of lies, the one thrown into darkness are all biblical connections. Melko’s rebellion was to increase power and glory as the biblical Satan intent was as well. Melkor forges a crown for himself and gives title “king of the world.” Melkor like Satan could not create, but only corrupt or cause marring of the once good creation.. Frodo said “The shadow that bred [the orcs] can only mock and it cannot make, not real things of its own. I don’t think it gave life to orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them”. And in the letters of Tolkien he said “Servants of the dark power, and later Sauron, neither of whom could, or would produce living things, they must be corruptions.”

“Satan promised Eve deathlessness, secret knowledge and enhanced power if she would disobey god and eat of the forbidden fruit [gen 3 4-5]. In middle earth the dark lord sauron promises much the same as he tempts the kings of Numonor to turn from the worship of Eru Ilvatar, set sail for the undying lands forbidden to them and claim the immortality he suggests is theirs by right of their greatness. Its all a lie of course and leads to their destruction. The creator, in his wisdom decrees that humans would be mortal...Tolkien refers to its tragic end as “the second fall of man.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


Angels Demons Satan Evil


To the Catholic Tolkien, angels can be and are prayed to. Frodo prays and is helped by the angelic valar Elberth or Gilthoniel when the witch king is about to stab him. Galadriel possesses intercessory powers and is a reflection of Mary, the mother of Jesus; she also seems to have divine powers, reading the hearts/minds of the fellowship. In the LOTR, the higher powers [valar/maiar/angels] help in creation. Some biblical interpreters have said that Genesis 1:26 refers to angels helping in creation, just as in Middle Earth with the valar. Also, just like in the bible, the holy spirit casts out darkness and demons. For Tolkien, the secret fire was the holy spirit; Gandalf said, “I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of udun... go back to the shadow you cannot pass.” Gandalf tells the witch king, “go back to the abyss that awaits you and your master.” This is the biblical understanding of hell being created for the devil and demons.

But how can LOTR be Christian with pagan wizards in it? The Proper name for wizards is scholars or istari. When asked, Tolkien said “wizards distinct from sorcerers or magicians ...equivalent in the mode of these tales of angels, guardian angels.” Wizards on middle earth had limited power, he said “wizards...when enemy forces are to powerful can act in emergency as an “angel” no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison.” Gandalf and other good “wizards” did not use magic to do “spells,” their power was given to them by Eru (God). Of the elves “magic” Tolkien said “Their “magic” is art...its objective is art not power, sub creation not domination and tyrannical re forming creation.” Gandalf’s staff and powers were constant with Judges 6:21 & 13:19-20.

“The values that emerge in “The Lord of the Rings” are the values that emerge in the Gospels. In the characterization of the Hobbits, the most reluctant and the most unlikely of heroes, we see the exaltation of the humble. In the figure of Gandalf we see the archetype of an Old Testament patriarch, his staff apparently having the same power as that possessed by Moses.”
-Bradley Birzer J.R.R Tolkien s Sanctifying Myth


Pagan magic in LOTR is sinister; it seeks to alter the created world and is associated with machines and the desire for power. Bad magic is the “Desire power in this world, domination of things and wills.” “The enemy...concerned with sheer domination and so the land of magic and machines.” Hobbits never studied magic and Tolkien viewed modern technology as a form of magic. Sauron, Saurman, and the king of the wring-wraiths are the sorcerers of Deuteronomy 18:9-12 and evil.