Note on the landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations

[ArcusCalion]

I wonder if it is best to put the narrative in the Third Age, but leave the mention that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age. That way the majority of the wizards are left in the place they were meant to be, and we learn retroactively of the presence of the Blue Wizards in the Second Age.

[ArcusCalion]

I forgot to include this in my post, but I propose adding in the short poem about the Istari right before the council (we could discuss if it is better to include it after the council):

FW-SL-00.5:

FW-SL-00.5 <The Ist Will thou learn the lore / that was long secret
of the Five that came / from a far country?
FW-00.7 {One only}[Not all] returned. / Others never again
under Men's dominion / Middle-earth shall seek
until Dagor Dagorath / and the Doom cometh.
How hast thou heard it: / the hidden counsel
of the Lord of the West / in the land of Aman?
The long roads are lost / that led thither,
and to mortal Men / Manwë speaks not.
From the West–that–was / a wind bore it
to the sleeper's ear, / in the silences
under night-shadow, / when news is brought
from lands forgotten / and lost ages
over seas of years / to the searching thought.
Not all are forgotten / by the Elder King.
Sauron he saw / as a slow menace ....>

I changed the one line from "One only" to "Not all" since Tolkien's late note changed the fate of the Blue Wizards to be successful in their mission, and also due to Christopher's comments about the illogical nature of the statements about the failure of Radagast. Regardless of Radagast, the Blue Wizards were sucessful, so it cannot be said that only one returned.

[Findegil]

Posted by ArcusCalion:

Are we claiming then that all the Istari arrived far earlier than the time of their first 'appearance' (albeit the Blue Wizards said to be earlier than the others)?

To be first clear about this: I don't think that Saruman, Radagast and Gandalf came in the Second Age! It is clear that all the emessaries from the west (the Istari and Glrofindel) came by the propose of the Valar not as a group. My theory behind this, is that the events in Middle-earth were faster that the Valar expected and that when the Blue wizards and Glorfindel had been transported to, the intervention of the Númenoreans stopped the Valar from letting Saruman, Radagast and Gandalf go. Their journey was postponed until it made sense again in about 1000 Third Age.
I see the issue you have with the text as compiled by me, but I don't see a good solution that is not nearing fan-ficion as my theroy given above.

Posted by ArcusCalion:

I wonder if it is best to put the narrative in the Third Age, but leave the mention that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age. That way the majority of the wizards are left in the place they were meant to be, and we learn retroactively of the presence of the Blue Wizards in the Second Age.

This is an option, but if we have as you observed dificulties to make clear that 3 of the 5 came much later, than we will in that way have dificulties to explaine that the choosing of the five was already in the Second Age. And we have in the chapter "Glrofindel" the mentioning of the arrival at the same time as the 2 wizards, which if we do not mention the wizards any more in the Second Age stuff would be a bit strange or not?

I am not so sure which dificulties are eassier to solve, and still tend to include the chapter here.

Gondowe, I couldn't find any thing in the Letters that would add inside to our discussion.

BY-HL-11I can see the reasoning behind that change. I agree that 'Of the Five Wizards' should be enough.

FW-SL-16: Agreed, the changes might help to lessen the issue with the early choosing and later arivial.

FW-SL-00.5: I like that additon.

FW-SL-00.7: I don't think this change is necessary. Radagast is not reported to return. It is said explicitly that he became enamoured to the fauna of Middle-earth and that this prevented him of fullfilling his mission properly. And the two Blue Wizards, well they did a good job for a long time as it seems but that does not mean that they did not faile in the end. See Saruman for excample, he also did for a long time the best he could to promote the mission of the Istari.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

FW-SL-16: I think you are right and these changes might help to alleviate the erroneous implications of the chapter placing. I shall have to revise my Third Age draft for these things, but I suppose that will not be a problem. Perhaps this chapter may as well go here.

FW-SL-00.7: Christoper Tolkien points out that if Yavanna sent Radagast explicitly because he was a lover of birds and beasts, then how could he fail his mission by becoming enamored of them? I suppose you could argue that his secondary goals supplanted his primary goals and that was what made him fail, but due to the fact that Christopher Tolkien himself expressed doubts about the logic here, as well as Tolkien's apparent change of heart about the Blue WIzards, throws this into doubt for me. Liek you said however, the Blue Wizards may have turned to evil eventually, but it must have been very late, if even at the end of the Third Age the armies of Sauron were smaller due to their work. Personally, I think from a timeline perspective their turning evil is extremely unlikely.

[Findegil]

Turning top evil does not mean going over to Sauron! If they did build their own realm of power in competition to Sauron as did Saruman, or probably even more open, since Saruman played a double game with bith sides, that would have still be helpfull in distracting forces that Sauron could have used against the west, but would have been a failure in the Istari quest.

And for Radagast that is exactly how I see his failure: Even so Yavanna wished to have one emessairy that had a special care for here beasts and birds, the main mission was to raise opposition to Sauron, and I don't see Radagast doing that in his actions around Rosgobel.

Resspectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Ah you are correct, I had not thought of that. I suppose since there is no explicit contradiction here then we must leave it as is, as sad as that is.

[ArcusCalion]

Actually, I had a new thought reading the beginning of this work. The narrative starts off somewhat abruptly, but I have an idea. If we take the last line of the poem: 'Sauron he saw as a slow menace.' And place it as prose right before the 'Therefore' it would be a better opening. So, like so:

FW-SL-00.8 <The Istari Sauron {he}Manwë saw {_} as a slow menace. FW-SL-01<The Istari {Most of the remaining writings about the Istari (as a group) are unhappily no more than very rapid jottings, often illegible. Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of}Therefore /he summoned/ a council of the Valar, {summoned it seems by Manwë,} and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel, ...

I think this flows more smoothly, and is a more dynamic opening.