Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn

[Findegil]

Posted by ArcusCalion:

We all agreed that the version with Olorin was not correct, and that the version of Celebrimbor was to be taken up.

Re-rading the thread “Celebrimbor” I don’t think that we came to this conclusion. But nonetheless the story of Celebrimbor making the second Elessar should be included. But the questions remain open for me if he was also the smith of the first and if the story of Olorin bringing the stone back is really out. Both have of course some implications on the edit of this part of the Elessar story here. So probably we should resume the discussion in that thread first.
However we might decide on this, working with the integration of the Elessar text I found some other nice variants for the edit of this chapter. So let’s first clear the Elessar issue and then discuss here farther.

I fully agree to Galins argument.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I would love to hear the alternate ideas you have for including the alternate versions.

[Findegil]

Okay, as the discussion about the Elessar in the thread ‘Celebrimbor’ has made some success. I will post here my alternative arrangement of the texts:

BY-HL-08<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn
>CGC-SL-00.2<Of the Rings of Power Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; ... concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.
Men he found the easiest to sway ... his hue was still that of one both fair and wise.> CGC-SL-01<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn
The building of the chief city of Eregion, Ost-in-Edhil, was begun in about the year 750 of the Second Age CGC-SL-02{ [the date that is given in the Tale of Years for the founding of Eregion by the Noldor]}. News of these things came to the ears of Sauron, ... came himself, wearing the fairest form that he could contrive.
CGC-SL-05 But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lórinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains.[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-06{In a note to the text it is explained that }Lórinand was the Nandorin name of this region (afterwards called Lórien and Lothlórien), and contained the Elvish word meaning "golden light": "valley of gold." The Quenya form would be Laurenandë, the Sindarin Glornan or Nan Laur. CGC-SL-07{Both here and elsewhere the meaning of the name is explained by reference to the golden mallorn-trees of Lothlórien; but they were brought there by Galadriel (for the story of their origin see p.176), and in another, later, discussion the}The name Lórinand is said to have been itself a transformation, ... an overwhelming regret."
Lórien itself was originally the Quenya name of a region in Valinor, often used as the name of the Vala (Irmo) to whom it belonged; CGC-SL-08{"}a place of rest and shadowy trees ... It may be noted that Treebeard interpreted Lothlórien as 'Dream-flower.'CGC-SL-09{"
In "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" I have retained the name Lórinand throughout, although when it was written Lórinand was intended as the original and ancient Nandorin name of the region, and the story of the introduction of the mallorns by Galadriel had not yet been devised.}] This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuiviénen and settled in the woods of the Vale of Anduin CGC-SL-10{ [The Silmarillion p.94]}; and it extended into the forests on both sides of the Great River including the region where afterwards was Dol Guldur. These Elves had no princes or rulers, and led their lives free of care while all Morgoth's power was concentrated in the North-west of Middle-earth; CGC-SL-11{6} CGC-SL-12{"}but many Sindar and Noldor came to dwell among them, and their 'Sindarizing' under the impact of Beleriandic culture began.{"} It is not made clear when this movement into Lórinand took place; it may be that they came from Eregion by way of Khazad-dûm and under the auspices of Galadriel.>CGC-SL-00.1 < The history of Galadriel and Celeborn; The Elessar
In ages after there was again an Elessar, and of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone. For some say that ... she longed for news of her kin and for the blessed land of her birth, CGC-SL-00.2{and yet was unwilling to forsake Middle-earth [this sentence was changed to read:} but was not permitted yet to forsake Middle-earth{]}. And when Olórin had told her many tidings she sighed, ... Then Olórin said: "Would you then have the Elessar?"
And Galadriel said: "Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? CGC-SL-00.3{ And Enerdhil is gone who made it.}" ... all who cling to it are under a shadow."
"It is not so," said Olórin. "Their eyes are not dimmed ... Elessar he shall be called." CGC-SL-00.4{(19)}
CGC-SL-00.5b The other tale runs so: that long ago, ere Sauron deluded the smiths of Eregion, Galadriel CGC-SL-00.6b came there, and she said to Celebrimbor, ... that no Spring can redress."
"How otherwise can it be for the Eldar, if they cling to Middle-earth?" said Celebrimbor. "Will you then pass over Sea?"
"Nay," she said. "Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last. CGC-SL-00.65{(20)} But my heart is still proud. ... Here I am mightier."
"What would you then?" said Celebrimbor.
"I would have trees and grass ... And Celebrimbor said: "Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? CGC-SL-00.67{And Enerdhil who made it is gone.}" "They have passed over Sea," said Galadriel, "with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle-earth fade and perish for ever?"
"That is its fate, I deem," said Celebrimbor. ... But he did not say to Gala¬driel that he himself CGC-SL-00.7b <editorial addition based on the Endnote to The Elessar {The Elessar was made in Gondolin by Celebrimbor, and so came to Idril and so to Eärendil. But that passed away.}>{was of Gondolin}had long ago{, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been renowned} /made the Elessar for Idril, that had passed away with Eärendil/. Therefore he took thought, and began a long delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the great¬est of his works (save the Three Rings only). And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of CGC-SL-00.73{Enerdhil}[old], but yet its light had less power. For whereas that of CGC-SL-00.75{Enerdhil}[old] was lit by the Sun in its youth, ... in the likeness of an eagle rising upon outspread wings. CGC-SL-00.77{(21)} Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to CGC-SL-00.8b the Forest. But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three, CGC-SL-00.85{(22)} was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrían her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar.
CGC-SL-12.5<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn Galadriel, striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron, was successful in Lórinand; while in Lindon Gil-galad shut out Sauron's emissaries and even Sauron himself CGC-SL-13b{ [as is more fully reported in Of Rings of Power (The Silmarillion p. 287)].}> CGC-SL-04b<Of the Rings of Power {Only to Lindon he did not come}, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, ... knowledge which those have who are beyond the Sea?'
It was in Eregion that ... for his knowledge was great.>CGC-SL-13.5<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn
{But}Thus Sauron had better fortune then in Lindon with the Noldor of Eregion and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Fëanor. CGC-SL-14{ [The cozening of the smiths of Eregion by Sauron, and his giving himself the name Annatar, Lord of Gifts, is told in Of the Rings of Power, but there is there no mention of Galadriel].}
In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ({"}thus anticipating the Istari{"}) or ordered by them ... bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy. CGC-SL-15{[No explanation is offered in this rapid outline of why Galadriel scorned Sauron, unless she saw through his disguise, or of why, if she did perceive his true nature, she permitted him to remain in Eregion.]}[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-16{In an isolated and undateable note it is said that although}Although the name Sauron is used earlier than this in the Tale of Years, … (about the time when he established the haven of Vinyalondë CGC-SL-17{, p.185}). But it had no known centre. … and a fair name: Artano "high-smith," or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë CGC-SL-17.5{. (In Of the Rings of Power, p. 287, the name that Sauron gave to himself at this time was} , and Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. CGC-SL-18{; but that name is not mentioned here.) The note goes on to say that} Galadriel was not deceived, … corrupted 'before Arda began' by Melkor. CGC-SL-19{" With this compare the opening sentences in Of the Rings of Power: "Of old there was Sauron the Maia. ...In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance."}] Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, ... for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft.[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-20{In a letter written in September 1954 my father said: "}At the beginning of the Second Age {he [}Sauron{]} was still beautiful to look at, … is also symbolized by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.{"}]> CGC-SL-04c<Of the Rings of Power In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.> CGC-SL-20.5<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn So great became {his}Saurons hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her CGC-SL-21{Amroth and }Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In Lórinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron.>

Some comments:
CGC-SL-00.2: This is the first part of what had been CGC-SL-04. To better bind the text together I had to change more often between the one and the other. Thus we have here now Saurons overall motive first.
CGC-SL-01: After the overall motive here the special news making Sauron adapt his plans.
CGC-SL-05: I left that editing marker in, but really the text oft he source is contiuos between CGC-SL-01 and CGC-SL-05.
CGC-SL-00.1: Here I would enter the story oft he Elessar returned or made anew. As we have just mentioned Galadriels intensivied contacts with Lórinand and explained that that relam extended into the woods among Amon Lanc (Later Dol Guldur), it seems natural that the meeting of Galadriel with Olórin could have been in Greenwood at that time or that Galadriel would come back to Eregion to speak to Celebrimbor.
CGC-SL-00.3, CGC-SL-00.67, CGC-SL-00.7b, CGC-SL-00.73 and CGC-SL-00.75: As we decided to make Celebrimbor the maker of the first Elessar we have adapt our text here accordingly.
CGC-SL-00.8b: Since in my editing Galadriel has just been to Lórinand which includes the later Dol Guldur and I will take up that about for a time in the next used source text, I think that the sentence can be used.
CGC-SL-12.5: Here we come back to Galadriels successful mission to Lórinand, getting influence and counteracting Sauron (or the center of ill will against the Eldar observed by her as coming from the east).
CGC-SL-13b: Now her is what gave rise to the idea of a different placement of the texts.
CGC-SL-04b: Now this exactly the fuller tale of how Sauron was rejected in Lindon. It was part of CGC-SL-04 in my first editing.
CGC-SL-04c: This I have now moved farther down, but I still think that they should start the making before they revolt against Galadriel, because the secrets of craft provided by Sauron for the rings of power are a good motive for the Mírdain to come under Saurons influence. The text was as well part of CGC-SL-04 in the first editing.
CGC-SL-20.5: The marking is just to introduce the source information since I wanted to avoid an insert into an insert.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

This new draft actually looks quite excellent! I have only a few very minor (mostly grammatical) changes to suggest:

I think the tales of the Elessar seem to begin rather abruptly. Perhaps we should add in the subheading from their origin: BY-HL-08.5 <the Elessar The Elessar>. This would help separate the specific tale from the rest of the chapter. After the second version finishes, we could also add in a break before the text resumes, to set it apart.

CGC-SL-00.3: Galadriel's response to Olorin's question needs minor revision, thus:

And Galadriel said: ‘Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? CGC-SL-00.3 {And Enerdhil is gone who made it.}’ ‘Who knows?’ said Olórin. ‘Surely,’ said Galadriel, ‘{they have}it has passed over Sea

She cannot say "they have" since our removal of Enerdhil has caused there to be only one thing mentioned.

CGC-SL-00.67: This is the same exact change as the one I suggested above, but for the second version of the tale.

CGC-SL-00.7b: I think the entire bit should be removed. If Galadriel knew about the Elessar, how could she not know who made it? In the version as written she knew who had made it, so why should we change that? I simply removed it thus:

CGC-SL-00.7b {But he did not say to Galadriel that be himself was of Gondolin long ago, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been renowned.}

This way we also have to take less liberty with inventing new sentences.

CGC-SL-13.5: I do not think the 'than in Lindon' is necessary, since we already say 'with the Noldor of Eregion,' and in fact adding in the bit about Lindon makes the sentence sound awkward. I think it is best to leave it out.

CGC-SL-20.5: I do not think we need to specify 'Sauron's' here, since we refer to him in the previous sentence.

[Findegil]

BY-HL-08.2 & BY-HL-08.4: As ArcusCalion I as well found the change of subject at the beginning of the Elessar abrupt. So I agree to take up the headline, but then we have to put another one at the end of the Elessar stuff. And since we don’t have any good text for it, this can only be an editorial addition of ‘* * *’.

CGC-SL-00.3 & CGC-SL-00.67: Thanks for catching these!

CGC-SL-00.7c: I agree, you approach is much safer than mine. But I will call the complete removal CGC-SL-00.7c, following the old agreement that letters nominate different variants of the same change.

CGC-SL-13.5: Okay, reading the sentence same time after changing it, I agree that it reads awkward. We leave the addition of ‘than in Lindon’ out.

CGC-SL-20.5: Agreed, this might have been an artefact of shifting around passages.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Looks like another successful chapter!