The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves

[ArcusCalion]

I will respond to each point raised by Fin in order. Any to which I do not respond, I agree with.

SP-SL-03: This looks good, but perhaps we should include the bit from Dwarves and Men, footnote number 65:

SP-SL-03.5 <DM Note 65 The Elves of Harlindon, or Lindon south of the Lune, {are said to have been}were largely of Sindarin origin, and the region {to have been}was a fief under the rule of Celeborn.>

SP-SL-04: I included this poem in Volume 3, but I suppose it fits somewhat here. Why do you want to include it here and not later?

SP-SL-07: The second part of this addition is from a larger paragraph used later on in Of the Rings of Power. Should we not leave it there? Or do you suggest repeating it? As for the first part and the addition of Amroth, I agree with the reasoning, but I am unsure if there is a pressing need to write something like this wholecloth. Do the rules allow for such invention?

SP-SL-08: This is fine, but in my version I added after this paragraph another insertion from Appendix A of Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn:

SP-SL-08.5 <GC Appendix A Although the dialects of the Silvan Elves, when they again met their long separated kindred, had so far diverged from Sindarin as to be hardly intelligible, little study was needed to reveal their kinship as Eldarin tongues. Though the comparison of the Silvan dialects with their own speech greatly interested the loremasters, especially those of Noldorin origin, little is now known of the Silvan Elvish. The Silvan Elves had invented no forms of writing, and those who learned this art from the Sindar wrote in Sindarin as well as they could.>

SP-SL-12: I think the version you give in the draft post is better. The one you constructed in the commentary is far too mis-match, and I think is needlessly specific. I wholeheartedly support the shorter one which you gave first.

SP-SL-13, 14: This whole paragraph came together marvelously, but I have added the bit from the Shibboleth about her choice:

...[Eönwë].> SP-SL-12.7 <SF Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth.> SP-SL-13<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn For this and for love of Celeborn, who had SP-SL-14<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath> and would not leave Middle-earth {(and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there)}, she did not go ...

I think this pride of hers is an important point to emphasize, especially since it's given in the Shibboleth from which we have taken much. But Perhaps this is not needed, or is redundant.

SP-SL-15: The part that says her birth is unrecorded is an editorial observation by Christopher, not a lore point by Tolkien. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to stick to that as canon, and certainly no reason to include CT's editorial comment as part of the text. I personally see no issue with simply replacing Amroth's name with Celebrian.

SP-SL-26: I have another addition right before this paragraph talking about Oropher:

SP-SL-25.5 <GC Appendix B Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and> < had come among {them}the Silvan Elves with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, SP-SL-25.7 based on GC Appendix A {adopting}[learning] their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love. They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.>
SP-SL-26 <GC Appendix B The Elvish folk of {this}Oropher's realm had migrated from the south, being the kin and neighbors of the Elves of SP-SL-26.1 {Lórien}[Lórinand]; but they had dwelt in Greenwood the Great east of Anduin. In the Second Age their king, Oropher, SP-SL-27{[} father of Thranduil, father of Legolas, {]} had withdrawn northward beyond the Gladden Fields. SP-SL-28 <Disaster of the Gladden Fields Note 14 They had left their ancient dwellings about Amon Lanc, across the river from their kin in {Lórien}[Lórinand]. Three times he had moved northwards, and at the end of the Second Age he dwelt in the western glens of the Emyn Duir, and his numerous people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward as far as Anduin, north of the ancient Dwarf-Road (Men-i-Naugrim).> This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, which had grown to be the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves recorded in history; and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into {Lórien}[Lórinand]. But as yet there was little to fear between the Greenwood and the Mountains and there was constant intercourse between his people and their kin across the river, until the War of the Last Alliance.>

25.5 This paragraph describes the motivations of the Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves, and I think it is very important, not to mention discussing the linguistics a bit.

25.7 This paragraph dates to a time before Tolkien decided that the Silvan language had died out, and so I changed it to reflect his later views.

26.1 At this point in time, the country is named Lórinand, and so I think we should reflect that in the text. I have changed it in the following paragraphs as well.

28 This is from the note to the Gladden Fields. I felt that it fit better here in the narrative than in a random footnote to a much much later text, so I've moved it here.

This is an excellent chapter, and a brilliant start to the Second Age narratives! I'm very excited to go forward on this. I apologize for the length of the post.

[Findegil]

Posted by gondowe:

When it is said at the end os OtRoD that Elwing escaped from Doriath with part of the people I introduced that whit her was Celeborn.

Yes, I as well considered that placement, but then I thought that Celebron could as well have been with the Sindarin fighters ariving late at the battle field and attacking the Feanorians when Menegroth had already fall. It is told that the brethern were in the end winners in a field of dead, but the text suggets nonetheless that some of these late attackers escaped (as far as I remember).

SP-SL-03.5: This note was repeated in UT and I used it later on, when Galadriel and Celeborn returned to Lindon. But that can be discussed.

SP-SL-04: Actually I tend to agree to your choice to postpone it to part 3. I included it here because when we discussed it first as a part the chapter about the Voyage of Eärendil, we discovered that the time of such a journey as these happy mariners make can only be the Second Age between the main return of the exiles at the beginn of the Age and the time when the visits of Eressean Eldar to Númenor stopped, I suppose. And in that time span this place seemed to me the best fitting. But the idea of placing it in part 3 didn't come to my mind.

SP-SL-07: Repeating this sentence is no option. And to use the complete section here as well not good, since the reason for Orophers northward movement will is told after this placement. To use the complete section later is an option, but I found it desierable to give these excamples of the Sindarin leaders establishing realms among the Silvian Elves.

SP-SL-08.5: Good find! This is nice addition that I missed.

SP-SL-12.7: This does not work for me. In RGEO we have ban on Galadriels return. Since RGEO is a high priority source, we can not here creat a text that would denie the ban. I tried to circumfent that question in my version, so it might be that I failed. If that is so, we have edit any passage out that does sound like there was a possibilty for return of Galadriel at this stage in the history.

SP-SL-15: To replace Amroth with Celebrian would creat an unknow fact in Middel-earth, which is clearly against our rules. So we either state the fact that her birth place is unknown, for which I tried to use Christophers 'comment' or we skip that sentence.

SP-SL-25.5 & SP-SL-25.7: Good find! But I don't think that {adopting}[learning] does help. I have to search about this a bit longer, but think we have passages describing the slow process from the Sindarin intruders adopting Silvian speech over introduction of single words of Sindarin because they might better fit until the speech of Lórien and Mirkwood Elves was a kind of Sindrain dialect.

SP-SL-26.1: Agreed.

SP-SL-28: Good find.

Posted by ArcusCalion:

This is an excellent chapter, and a brilliant start to the Second Age narratives! I'm very excited to go forward on this. I apologize for the length of the post.

Thanks for the flowers! The next chapter is in preperation for posting and there is nothing for apologize for if post are long, if they are full of highly apreciated contenet.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

SP-SL-03.5: If it is used later on, then I think it is fine to leave it the way you had it.

SP-SL-04: Sounds good, I will leave it in Volume 3.

SP-SL-07: I agree that it is beneficial to mention these leaders here. I would suggest this as a solution:

SP-SL-05<LotR; Appendix B SP-SL-06 {Thranduil}[Oropher], long in{ the north of} Greenwood the Great, was one of these{.}, SP-SL-07<Editorial addtion based on The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Appendix B as was Amdír King of Lórinand.>

This way we include the names of the Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves (which I agree we must do) without using the sentence from later on and messing up the continuity of the drafts.

SP-SL-12.7: Ahhh I see, I had forgotten about the supremacy of RGEO. You are right in your original draft in that case, and I rescind my suggestion.

SP-SL-15: I see now your reasoning, but I think it is better to leave the sentence off entirely then, instead of to include CT's commentary.

SP-SL-25.5/25.7: I think this change is all that is required. In later drafts re included more inserts about the changes in Sindarin due to the Silvan influence, so I do not think we need to make that explicit here. I think the {adopting}[learning] change is sufficient to set the stage, and conveys the meaning.

[Findegil]

SP-SL-07: Agreed.

SP-SL-15: It is okay for me, to leave the sentence out.

SP-SL-25.5 & SP-SL-25.7: Okay, we can work in that way.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

The second age is so muddled and confusing, I think this is a great first chapter. A few comments:

1)

Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth bad laid upon him were very strong.

There's a small typo in text Arcus sent to me. It should say "bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him".

2) Both Ered Luin and Ered Lindon are both used to refer to the Blue Mountains. Are we using whatever Tolkien used in a particular text? Or is part of this project to regularize names, i.e. use Ered Luin consistently?

3) I know Celeborn is a Sindar who eventually becomes a leader of the Silvan elves in Lorien, but it seems like the added sections about Celeborn and Galadriel only describe their settling in Eregion and therefore these sections don't really seem to fit based on the title of the chapter, unless we add in their settling in Lórinand. Later in the chapter it states that Oropher resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórinand but this is not discussed in the chapter. Are we attempting to make the sequence of chapters chronological to the best of our ability? I also have some comments about the text itself, I have bolded parts I wish to discuss:

But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}.> SP-SL-11 <Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12 <HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].> SP-SL-13 <The History of Galadriel and Celeborn For love of Celeborn, who had SP-SL-14 <The History of Galadriel and Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath> and would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador. When they entered that region there were many Noldor in their following, together with Grey-elves and Green-elves; and for a while they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial (Evendim, north of the Shire).

I am very confused about the timeline here. First it is stated Galdriel and Celeborn cross the Blue mountains before the end of the First Age. Then it says Celeborn returned later to Doriath. Returned from where? And hasn't Doriath already been sunk with the rest of Beleriand at this time? Then it says Galadriel and Celborn pass east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand. I'm assuming these are the Blue Mountains; haven't they already crossed them? Later it again says Galadriel crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn.

4)

and indeed greatest in skill among them was Celebrimbor, son of Curufin

There is a long section before this about the lineage of Celebrimbror, so saying he is the "son of Curufin" here seems redundant.

5) I like the addition of Amdir to this section, but I wish there was a bit more we could say about him. If the chapters aren't meant to be completely chronological, I think we could add in the two paragraphs (with some minor editorial changes) from Unfinished Tales in the "Amroth and Nimrodel" section after Christropher Tolkien says "The essay continues with a brief explanation...":

"The people of Lorien were even then {[i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth]}...At that time Elrond went westward {[sic; probably meaning simply that he did not cross the Misty Mountains]}...Amroth, his son, became king".

[ArcusCalion]

1) thanks for the catch! I fixed it in my copy.

2) If people or places or things have more than one name, Tolkien at times uses various ones, and we have not standardized them in the past. Both these names for the range have been given and explained before, so the reader knows them already.

3) The titles for the chapters are only ever taken from Tolkien himself. We do not invent chapter titles. Therefore, we are often at a loss to find ones that fit perfectly. This one fits the best of the options available, even if it fits imperfectly.

As for the timeline it goes thus: Celeborn and Galadriel go east over the Ered Lindon -> Celeborn returns to Doriath -> Doriath is sacked by the Sons of Feanor -> War of Wrath/summons of Eonwe -> Galadriel comes back to Lindon too late to hear the summons -> she and Celeborn go back east again over the Ered Lindon into Eriador. However, you are right to point out that in the draft we have, Galadriel is said to depart east over the Ered Lindon twice here:

But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}.> SP-SL-11 <Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12 <HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].>

I will admit to being puzzled by this. Fin, since you compiled this, can you explain what was meant here?

4) You are right, it can easily be removed to remove the redundancy.

5) I see no reason to add these paragraphs here. They describe his son Amroth, and it says 'at the time of the death of Amroth' which is the middle of the Third Age. As it stands, those paragraphs are included in the Third Age chapter 'Of the Legend of Amroth and Nimrodel.' I also wish we knew more about Amdir, but unfortunately Tolkien never wrote more than the few footnotes and tidbits mentioning him.

[Findegil]

Welcome gandalf85!

1) Thanks for pointing out that typo.
2) Interesting question. This has to be discussed. For the time being I did use whatever Tolkien used in texts that I collected together. But you are right some consistency would probably be nice. For me Ered Lindon is the later name in the Middel-earth time line, since that name must have become common when Lindon was occupied by Nolder in the second age. But however both names are clearly valid in all time so we could as well keep them parallel, as ArcusCalion suggested.
3) A very good catch! You’re a right if the title is fitting is based on the definition of the term ‘Silvan Elves’. Since Galadirel and Celeborn are Lord and Lady of Eriador, the wandering companies of that land are clearly Nandor. But it is an open question of the Nandor of Eriaodr are a subgroup of the Silvan Elves, since the first definition we get is: ‘The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor. They were descended from those of the Teleri who, on the Great Journey, were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Vale of Anduin, and so never reached Beleriand or the Sea. They were thus closer akin to the Nandor (otherwise called the Green-elves) of Ossiriand, who eventually crossed the mountains and came at last into Beleriand.‘ The reference to the kinship is here to the Nandor of Ossiriand in special. I think that this makes a difference since these Beleriandic Nandor could be taken as removed from the more rustic Silvan Elves by their contact to the Noldor and specially the Sindar.
The settlement of Galdriel and Celeborn in Lorien is so much later that it would fully destroy any chronological telling, so I don’t think we can add that.
Asked by Gandalf85:

Are we attempting to make the sequence of chapters chronological to the best of our ability?

I hesitate to answer that question with ‘yes’, so ‘the best of our ability’ would be a way around any problem a clear ‘yes’ would create. Let’s put it thus: Chronological placement was a factor, but building logical entities with some cohesion was also considered.
However, even if the Nandor of Eriador are considered a separate people from the Silvan Elves, I think the title might still stand since we nicely meshed in references to the Silan Elves at the start and the end of the chapter.
I agree that this is difficult to figure out from our text, but we do not have anything better to work with and what we presented was the best arrangement we could find for the very complex movement of Galadriel and Celeborn, as ArcusCalion and I agreed on as our working hypothesis. It is not made easier by the fact that we tell part of it in retrospective, but I don’t think there is any other choice. To lift your confusion, an analysis of the text like this might help:
- ‘… Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age’
- ‘When Celeborn returned later to Doriath she [Galadriel] passed east over the mountains [Hithaeglir] and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of Eönwë[ at the End of the First Age to join him in the fight against Morgoth].’ [Nonetheless she came to Beleriand after the fight was over, see over next point.]
- ‘Celeborn, ... had escaped the sack of Doriath and would not leave Middle-earth’ [at the beginning of the Second Age, when Eönwë departed with most of the Elves of Beleriand]
- ‘For love of Celeborn ... (and probably with some pride of her own, for she [Galadriel] had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador. ... and for a while they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial (Evendim, north of the Shire).’
4) Yes, it is redundant, but I think that is bearable at least. In other places we have once and again Gwindor son of Guillin.
5) We used these paragraphs later, so I as well think we cannot use them here.

Respectfully
Findegil